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Author Topic: the rebate program... what a sham!  (Read 17880 times)

thepancakeman

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2013, 05:57:24 PM »
I don't quite get the animosity in this thread, other than maybe that some people have been griping about the rebate program or "getting ripped off".  I think there's plenty of room for honest discussion of when the best prices occur for Canon equipment and in this case specifically evaluating that question against their rebate program.

Obviously if you need the equipment, then buy it.  But for the cost conscious consumer who is more intent on finding the best (or at least a very good) deal, it's a simple question:  does the current state of Canon rebates and MAP lead to a true savings, a cost hike, or a wash over market prices during non rebate periods?

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2013, 05:57:24 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2013, 07:08:53 PM »
I have been lurking on this site for over a year now...  actually since the first rumors of the new 5D Mark III surfaced a while back.  I had been tracking the costs for over a year I planned to buy one when they were originally released.  A series of financial setbacks and other responsibilities prevented this from occurring last year on now is my time to get one.  Actually April 26th I will pull the trigger.  I was excited to see this rebate program was starting and thought top myself, wow... I can save a bit of money.  I had my wish list all set of a very popular NYC camera store and tracked the pricing closely.  Then the rebate program comes along and everyone raises their pricing to offer a rebate which actually makes the price higher than it was before the rebate program.  I have waited so long I may choice to wait longer.  Seriously is anyone fooled by this marketing ploy?  Raise the price than offer rebate to make the illusion of savings.  Only two companies I have seen keep their pricing low.  One scares me because of it's negative customer reviews online and maybe the other will get my business.  It just seems so bogus.

Yeah it happens a lot with these, not for all items from all stories every time, but I do see that a lot. Often it is a complete or partial sham (where the prices end up being anywhere from slightly less but not full rebate less to the same to even more than pre-rebate).

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2013, 07:11:27 PM »
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from my limited observation it seems that this "higher price after rebate than before" is much more prevalent now that Canon has their...um, forgot the exact term, but it's "minimum price" policy in place.

I thought when I watched the rebates before, the net effect was almost always lower prices (not by nearly as much as the rebate, though), whereas now it's not.  And I did notice the the prices of the bodies went up substantially when the rebates started while the lenses seem to be mostly a wash.
The Rebates have been based on the MSRP for a few years now, but way back, they were mail-in rebates and you could strike you best deal and then mail in and hope you got the rebate.  Finally, Canon's Rebate management company went out of business leaving a lot of very unhappy customers without their rebate. Canon made good on them, but it was a PR flop big time.
 
 
Canon then devised the new system whereby the dealer had to give the rebate up front, and then submit a bunch of paperwork to Canon to get credit.  This can be hard on small dealers, since they may be selling below cost and waiting for the rebate to make their loss up. I 'm not sure if it still happens that way.

Basically their rebates went from an indirect sham (realllly poor rebate company that would always try to pretend that you hadn't sent in this or that when you had and it'd be almost a year by the time you sent it or copies of all in 2 or 3 times and got the cash, if you were unlucky, if you were persistent you did always get the full rebate though) to an upfront sham :D.

Bad Canon.

backcountrygirl

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2013, 03:13:01 PM »
I agree. It is a bit of a sham, but I think there's more too it than that.
I believe Canon is having a problem selling it's 6D. They need to create a larger market for the new entry level
full frame so what they did was to create a larger gap in prices between the 6D and the 5D Mark III. Canon raises the prices slightly for the 5D Mark III, and they lower the price slightly with the 6D since it's entry level price of $2099. Yes, it was a smoke screen that Canon preformed here by Raising the prices and tossing out a rebate at the same time. Even Big Value is having a problem with selling the 5D Mark III now. They've been stuck on a quantity sold of 370 for the last 5 days. They too have raised prices, but in the end it's all about profit and creating markets.
With Canon trying to create this larger gap between the 6D and the 5D Mark III, it's going to allow Nikon to gain a larger market share of the DSLR overall market.
To be honest, there are lots of comparisons between the 5D Mark III and the Nikon D800. When you get right down to it, you really have to nit pick the heck out of the differences unless you include video. ( Canon is much better ) As of today you can get a Canon 5D Mark III for roughly $3299 from either of the big retailers out of New York. ( At the end of March you could get a 5D Mark III from the big boys at $2949 ) You can go to the same retailers and get the Nikon D800 for about $2796. A $500 difference between Nikon and Canon???
I love my Canon, but I question the strategy behind creating this new entry level extended price gap. It's going to hurt sales versus create sales by allowing Nikon to price gap the differences of the Canon strategy.

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Vossie

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2013, 03:35:39 PM »
On May 1 a rebate program in The Netherlands (and maybe some otherq European countries as well) will start. The 24-70 2.8 Ii has €300 in cah back! Time for me to get one. Over here you need to send in the original barcode to get your money back.

Have bought a lot of stuff under these programs. If you can wait with a purchase its an attractive construction.
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jcns

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2013, 05:45:19 PM »
yes many fall for this marketing strategy
Canon is not the only one that uses this strategy.  Macy's for example has been doing this for more than 15 years.

backcountrygirl

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2013, 07:11:55 PM »
BrokenArrow... You're totally right!
My background is marketing and adverting too. ;)
The Canon smoke screen/BS is indeed a junior marketing move. I kinda laughed when I saw what they were doing. Your also right when it comes to other companies that try to pull the same method of marketing. Your mention of Macy's was your example.
My issue isn't about bashing Canon products. I love my camera's and lenses!
My point is that by attempting to develop a lower entry full frame camera market, Canon has created a price gap which will help Nikon slide right in and take market share of the low to mid level professional camera equipment.
Is it a smart move to develop a new entry level full frame market with a larger price gap to the 5D Mark III due to lower than expected sales with the 6D or, do you lower the price gap to protect your market share?
It's a huge gamble, and I can't see them winning on this type of marketing strategy since as I mentioned before... the Nikon D800 and the Canon 5D Mark III are very similar to one another with the Nikon being $500 less.
Toss in the increase of smartphone camera's, and I'd be concentrating on keeping my market share.
Like the old saying goes... Money talks and BS walks...
I hope Canon cuts the price gap, and continues with providing great products to the loyal brand customers.


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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2013, 07:11:55 PM »

BrokenArrow

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2013, 12:36:51 PM »
The squeeze on the P&S digitals is going to increase to a merge with phones, you can see it coming.  I have two daughters for instance who have P&S units and DSLR's, good ones, from both Canon and Nikon, lounging in their closets because a real camera, of any kind, is just one more hassle when you have small children in tow and their iPhones, for them, do a passable job, even better than passable. 

Let me engage in some speculation.  From a pricing strategy standpoint Canon is heading for a box canyon kicking and screaming and making mistakes IMHO.  If they really wanted to put the big hurt on Nikon and everyone else (who likely have higher cost structures from lower volume), they would significantly push down the DX cameras to try and increase revenue there as P&S goes away, move the crippled and decontented FX like 6D initially to just under say, $1499, to meet that point that the 7D occupied at one time.  What about the 70D you ask?  I might be bold enough to offer the 70D for say, $1399, just enough above the N7100 to imply it is better and a feature set that outshines the 6D just like now and then start squeezing Nikon, who can't possibly have my economies of scale, to perhaps make them less profitable, but not predatorially so, as they squirm with the continuing degradation of the P&S business.  Canon is sitting there thinking that they are still on the front end of the life-cycle curve with things like the III and 6D and, speculating again, it is sneaking up on them.  I smell panic.  And mistakes.




BrokenArrow

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2013, 12:43:54 PM »
One missed thought - Moving the pricing frame down, as detailed above, also then allows for the III to come down to meet the D800.  Yes, we would
have to plot the volume curves and calculus to see if it makes sense business-wise.  Speculation on my part as I said but doing so would give the Nikon guys
the sleepless nights instead of Canon central.  And if I were them, I would worry a great deal more about the 70D slice (volume) and continuing leadership in
DX than I would about those halos farther up.

awinphoto

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2013, 02:37:36 PM »
yawn....  Hasn't the retail industry done this for YEARS?!?  With just about everything?  From clothes to shoes to TV's...  Watch, coming up you will have mothers day then fathers day then memorial day sales...  Prices goes up incrementally just in time for the "SALE"...  Sometimes you get some good deals...  Adorama and BH are a tad more even keel in these regards, but even they got fluxuations, especially on older products (2-3 years old)...  Sometimes you can get an even better deal by getting bundles and such...  It is what it is...
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2013, 03:46:54 PM »
The grass is always greener right on the other side?  Whenever I see threads like this I like to check the amazon top sellers list.  It's currently dominated by Canon.  12 of the top 20 selling bodies are canons - 8 are nikons.  The 6d body only is ranked at 12th, 6d with kit lens ranked at 13th, and the 5d3 ranked at 14th.

In the next rung down ranked 20-40, canon has 8 , nikon 11, panasonic slips in there with 1 --- the d800 ranks at 26, and, the d600 sneaks in at 37th.  Oddly, the aged 7d is ranked higher than the d800. 

What many here are also seeming to forget is that nikon created the same problem for themselves with pro/entry level FF bodies ---5d3/6d - d800/d600.  While we ague about the spec sheet for each of these bodies, consumers are buying more of the canon's than the nikons.

I still fully believe that nikon played a gamble and may be shooting themselves in the foot with their pricing strategy.  I can't be certain on this ---but... it kind of points towards 2 things ---

a) nikon saved enough on R&D by outsourcing their exmor sensor that they can sell it at under 3k and still make a profit,

or,

b) nikon should have priced the d800 closer to the mk3, but is selling it as a loss leader in order to snag market share and make up the loss with periphery equipment (lenses, flashes, etc, etc).

The problem with the B option is that they are getting flip flop buyers!!!  Some (and this is most likely the minority due to cost) of these people are investing in both systems, because both have their uses.  But many are just flipping - selling gear bag A for gear bag B.  Banking on flip floppers is a dangerous game, why, because they've flipped once so they'll do it again!  What happens in the next cycle?  Canon launches their big MP camera, if it's 46 MP with new sensor process and boat loads of DR, what are all those people who sold canon gear to go d800 gonna do, they will most likely repeat the process!!!!



 

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BrokenArrow

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2013, 01:14:41 AM »


I respect the fact that you gentlemen must have been on the board for a long time.  I admire and have bought Canon gear, I'm guessing,  for longer than you have unless you were gripping a Canon Pellix with a low light meter  in its hot shoe in 1969 (somebody should smack Sony for acting like the partially silvered mirror is a new invention of theirs).  I know that you must have ridden out a hundred flame wars over the time as you tried to help others here.  But some of us just got here, we don"t have the advantage of that history and, yes, we were exercised by what we see as marketing ineptitude.  As a career  marketing professional (high tech and Defense) I think I, and others, have a right to an opinion without being mocked, put down or belittled.  After reading the praise of Canon and the world-weary-intellectual, mocking condemnations of those with the temerity to question dogma, I begin to wonder what drives you.  I mean, do you work for Canon or wear a sign around your necks that says, "Please, charge me whatever you want, I already know it is the best."  Canon is indeed best in many cases, but not always, and not to the extent of shouting heresy! when there is discussion, especially by newbies like me or backcountrygirl, of other brands or products.  That's not likely to incentivize Canon to maintain some pricing sanity and it's not in your own best interests. That's religion you've got there brothers.  And you won't win many converts to your faith by trying to be the cool kids mocking others.

backcountrygirl

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2013, 07:01:56 PM »
I understand your thoughts, BrokenArrow. I've been lurking on this site for a long time before I actually signed on, and I know there are those that have been around longer than I have.
This has nothing to do against the Canon products. That's all I own... Some may know more about the Canon products, and that's fine with me too. We always need to continue our learning. However... with my background in retail advertising and marketing I'll also call it as I see it. This last rebate/price thing that happened during this so called "rebate program" I feel was backhanded gesture by Canon. That's how I personally felt about it, and I know there are more that felt the same way. Remember... I didn't start this thread. ;)
Canon shouldn't play myself or, any other loyal customer as stupid. That's what this rebate program amounts to. Now since they left this huge price discrepancy between certain camera models, I expect Nikon to gain more market share. How much more? Well... Big Value is still at a quantity of 370 5D Mark III sold, and that number hasn't changed in the last 7 days now. In marketing and advertising numbers are huge! Big Value's stuck at 370 tells me plenty.
With how Canon came across with this so called "rebate program", Canon's way of playing the loyal customers, and with this price gap in camera models between Canon and Nikon I've decided to set up my big fan. It's just a matter of time when a certain substance hits that fan. Just say'n...
It will play out that either Canon loses market share in the higher end cropped frame/entry to mid level full frame camera's or, Canon drops the prices. I guess we'll see which scenario plays out.
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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2013, 07:01:56 PM »

BrokenArrow

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2013, 02:09:03 PM »
Big Value is still at a quantity of 370 5D Mark III sold, and that number hasn't changed in the last 7 days now.


Something to consider though, as always, you have to be careful when somebody tells you HIS numbers.  I have wondered how Big Value and those others undercut the big houses and notice, with those two or three outlets, that they claim they are USA versions with proper warranty.  If I was B&H or Ador I would be screaming my head off to Canon about why they are forcing me to maintain this MAP when they don't.  One humorous possibility here is that is exactly what is happening.  So Canon calls Big Value and says, hey, knock it off.  BV responds saying, hey, this pig is not selling anyway even at my prices, drop the dang price.  Then BV stops showing any more sold on that "sold this many but more than 10 are remaining" line.  haha  The more interesting number would be the quantity trend at the big houses.  But does Macy's tell Gimbles?  Oh hell no.   I suppose if we wanted to talk disasters sometime we can talk about Canon M! I honestly feel sorry for him/her whoever they are.  In the South (note caps) we would say, "Well bless their hearts...".    ::)

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2013, 02:21:30 PM »
Big Value is still at a quantity of 370 5D Mark III sold, and that number hasn't changed in the last 7 days now.


Something to consider though, as always, you have to be careful when somebody tells you HIS numbers.  I have wondered how Big Value and those others undercut the big houses and notice, with those two or three outlets, that they claim they are USA versions with proper warranty.  If I was B&H or Ador I would be screaming my head off to Canon about why they are forcing me to maintain this MAP when they don't.  One humorous possibility here is that is exactly what is happening.  So Canon calls Big Value and says, hey, knock it off.  BV responds saying, hey, this pig is not selling anyway even at my prices, drop the dang price.  Then BV stops showing any more sold on that "sold this many but more than 10 are remaining" line.  haha  The more interesting number would be the quantity trend at the big houses.  But does Macy's tell Gimbles?  Oh hell no.   I suppose if we wanted to talk disasters sometime we can talk about Canon M! I honestly feel sorry for him/her whoever they are.  In the South (note caps) we would say, "Well bless their hearts...".    ::)

Amazon top sellers list --- 5d3 today isranked at 13th (body only)...6d is ranked at 10th (body and kit lens), and at 15th (body only.  D800 comes in at 20th -- and the d600 comes in at 28th --- the 7d is at 19th ---12 canons in the top 20...nikon has 8....Sounds to me like canon is selling camers!!!
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Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2013, 02:21:30 PM »