Upgrading...Canon 60D to...GH3

[jasonmillard81]

7d = same sensor as 60d so that's not an option but thanks for heads up ill check over suggestions out

[Axilrod]

Did you really get any input from some one who owns and uses the d60 and GH3?   Be careful, there can be lots of people who read about one offering expert advice.

I haven't used a GH3 but have used a hacked GH2.  I've seen pretty much every GH3 video available on the web at this point, and it looks excellent, especially for $1299.  And the 60D isn't even close, you don't need to own a GH3 to see that, take a look for yourself.

[Axilrod]

One other thing though - on the 60d af micro adjustment was removed (thanks, Canon!) so it's not an ideal camera body for fast primes or you have to make sure the specific copies don't need afma when buying them.

LOL he's using it for video (no need for AF), and Zeiss lenses are all manual focus. 

[Axilrod]

Thanks for the replies all!

I've been slowly gathering evidence, reading, watching videos, and man is there a lot to know! I'll be a bit regimented in this post for those that will graciously read/comment in order to make it more accessible.

Goals:

- Record footage and conduct interviews (in public as well as controlled environments)
- Create mini-documentaries on a range of topics that will force me to travel (once again, in public as well as controlled environments)

Equipment:

-Very near to pulling the trigger on a Refurb. Canon 5D Mark III (Currently have a 60D which I am looking to sell hopefully get 500-600)
-Lenses:
*Tamron 17-50
*Sigma 85
*Nifty 50 1.8
-SD 16GB extreme class 10 card (2)
-Standard photo tripod
-Glidecam 2000
-MacBook Pro (2011)
-FCX and Premiere 5.5
-H4N
-NTG-2

Equipment I think I need:

-ND Filter recommendations (Variable vs. Fixed? How many stops? Brand? etc.)
-Lenses (Canon vs. Tamron/Rokinon ... prime vs. zoom ... regular vs. cine ... vintage/nikon/etc)
-Slider (not familiar with these..i've seen some mounted on tripod and others that are on the floor?)
-Creating a "Rig":
- A way to affix h4n and ntg2 (extra shoe mounts etc?)
- do i need a follow/pull focus? or can it be done by hand
-Inexpenseive ViewFinder (zacuto seems expensive)
-Do I need a monopod? Shoulder rig?
-Can I get buy with h4n & ntg2? Do I need wireless mics? Beachtek? (i'm not that familiar with audio)


Keeping in mind that I am a school teacher who is doing this as a highly interested hobbyist and not doing this for commercial work, what would you recommend? I am not looking to spend thousands upon thousands (maybe over years) but i'm also not trying to by garbage, highly sub-par equipment either (I am springing for a 5D MK III).

Video is going to be the overwhelming majority use, with secondary pictures (more important for lens recommendations)

What advice would you give?

Regarding:

1. Equipment recommendations
2. Rig set-up (light/portable/effective)
3. Workflow (editing/recording/etc)
4. Anything else I'm forgetting


Thank you SO much in advance!!!

Ok I'll try and answer these:

-ND Filter recommendations (Variable vs. Fixed? How many stops? Brand? etc.):
I'd go variable, if you have different lenses with different filter sizes it will be really expensive trying to buy individual ND's.  Genus makes a decent Fader ND, there is a bit of color cast when you really crank it up but it's fixable in post.


-Lenses (Canon vs. Tamron/Rokinon ... prime vs. zoom ... regular vs. cine ... vintage/nikon/etc)
That all depends.  Primes are more expensive, but have advantages.  Zeiss lenses are amazing but also very expensive.  If you want cheap, quality primes check out the Bower/Rokinon/Samyang, 14mm f/2.8, 24mm f/1.4, 35mm f/1.4 and they have cine versions that aren't much more expensive.  If you're trying to do pictures as a secondary I'd just get one pretty good zoom with AF so you have something for that. 

-Slider (not familiar with these..i've seen some mounted on tripod and others that are on the floor?)
Yes, sliders can really add professionalism to your videos, there is something about a camera gliding on a completely level plane that just looks beautiful.  Some have legs that allow you to place them on the ground (or whatever surface) and most can be attached to a tripod.  The Cinevate Atlas 10 is a cheaper one that comes to mind.  There are lots of cheap sliders out there nowadays, on the higher end side there is the Kessler Cineslider and their Pocket Dolly is pretty nice too.

-Creating a "Rig":
Rigs are nice to have but I would worry about a nice tripod w/fluid head first.  There are tons of options out there, everything from the round Manfrotto Fig Rig to a high end Redrock Micro or Zacuto Rig.  I like Redrock's stuff and have a customized Cinema Deluxe Bundle but it was probably $3000 after everything was said and done.  Check out eBay and Jag35, again there are lots of options out there.  I'd also check ebay for used RedRock Micro stuff, I checked prices not too long ago to see what I could get for mine and remember being shocked at how much they had depreciated, so definitely check there.  They are rock solid and reasonably light for their size.

- A way to affix h4n and ntg2 (extra shoe mounts etc?)
Yeah beachtek makes a thing that gives you a bunch of extra mounts, i use that in these types of situations, but again there are alot of options out there.

- do i need a follow/pull focus? or can it be done by hand
You can try and do it by hand if you want, but yes I'd highly recommend one.  It just depends on the setup, on a tripod you could probably get away with not using one, but on a rig it would be more difficult.  There are some cheaper options out there I'm sure, haven't had to look in a while

-Inexpenseive ViewFinder (zacuto seems expensive)
Go on Amazon and search "LCDVF"

-Do I need a monopod? Shoulder rig?
Monopods can be great for small spaces, but if you do go ahead and one made specifically for video.  Manfrotto has one that has an actual tripod head on it, it's about $300.

-Can I get buy with h4n & ntg2? Do I need wireless mics? Beachtek? (i'm not that familiar with audio)
Yes, the H4n and NTG2 will work fine for what you are doing, you may want to consider renting some Sennheiser lav mics if you ever have to do more high quality interviews.

[Axilrod]

Honestly I think you should give it a shot with the gear you already have.  After the shoot ask yourself what could have made the job easier, and decide what you need next from there.

[JasonATL]

My own $0.02 on your list of questions. My assumption is that you are trying to stretch a budget.

Camera: The 5D Mark III is a great camera. A refurb will help you save money. You can often find it new for less than $3000 using CanonPriceWatch, so make sure the refurb is discounted below that.

Lenses: For video only, you probably can't go wrong with Canon, Rokinon, Tamron, or Zeiss. I have at least one of each, except for Rokinon (and they seem to have a good bang for the buck). I have bought my Zeiss lenses used from LensRentals and saved quite a bit. I doubt I'll buy another lens new. Don't overlook the non-L primes from Canon. I have the 50mm 1.4 and it is very good. It is about the shame sharpness as my Zeiss 50mm 1.4. I just like the look of Zeiss, so I prefer it. Also, for video, the manual focus operation of Zeiss lenses is much nicer than even Canon L lenses. On operation, the Rokinon Cine lenses are worth a look. Don't go too crazy here. You can only use one lens at a time! I strongly prefer primes. For interviews, a 50mm (on the crop sensor 60D or the full frame 5D Mark III) is nice, as is an 85mm (on a full frame). The 50mm 1.8 would do great for interviews on a 5D Mark III, especially once you stop down a few.

Loupe/Monitor: Axilrod mentioned the LCDVF. I love mine. Best accessory I have!

ND: A variable ND is handy. I've found it to be great in some circumstances and hit-or-miss in others (in terms of negatively affecting the image quality). I find the image quality to be better with fixed ND's. Consider a set of 0.6-1.2 ND (I have Tiffens). Get one set based on the largest filter ring you need (probably 77mm or 82mm), then get cheap step-down rings to adapt to smaller filter sizes. You might then need a cheap flexible screw-on hood, too. You can stack fixed ND's, which is what I find myself doing when I don't need the flexibility of the variable ND.

Slider: I don't have one. Sometimes I want one, but not very often. Might be different if I had one. I do have a skate-dolly (DIY slider). Nice effect, but for interviews, I don't find it critical.

Lights: I would put this as the first priority if you don't have any. Look for sales on 3-light kits at B&H or Adorama. You don't need to spend a fortune on lights, but some money spent on lights probably has a larger impact on the overall image more than the upgrading the camera or lenses that you already have. Good lighting will go farther in making your shot look professional than upgrading your other equipment.

Monopod: I have one. Used it sometimes. Haven't used it much recently. With the LCDVF, I get a lot of stabilization from having contact with my head. When I need more, I prefer a tripod. It is handy if you are moving your position (where you stand) a lot. Likewise, I have a rig. What I love about DSLRs is that people don't get freaked out by them the way they do a video camera. A rig ruins that. Sometimes a rig is great. If you are doing a lot of pro handheld, then you need it. If you are doing set shots, a tripod is often the way to go.

Tripod: You definitely need a video, fluid-head tripod. This is a fairly expensive item ($500+), but worth it.

Follow Focus: I don't have one. Sometimes, I wish I did. You can get by just using the focus ring on the lens. This is definitely a "nice to have" item.

[syder]

Equipment I think I need:

-ND Filter recommendations (Variable vs. Fixed? How many stops? Brand? etc.)

Variable are far more versatile for run and gun documentary style shooting where conditions change quickly and you need to be able to adapt rather than reach into a bag. The quality of them does vary enormously through, from cheap, soft and huge colour shifts to the Tiffen/Singh-Ray filters which cost a bit but wont significantly soften your image or add a noticeable colour cast. The LCW mark ii is somewhere in the middle. For working outside you do need some kind of ND filtration.

-Lenses (Canon vs. Tamron/Rokinon ... prime vs. zoom ... regular vs. cine ... vintage/nikon/etc)

Again what for? Interviews? Primes. Ensuring you get a use-able take of something which only happens once? The versatility of a good zoom wins every time. If you're going to be doing much handheld work seriously consider investing in glass with IS (Tamron 24-70 for example).

-Slider (not familiar with these..i've seen some mounted on tripod and others that are on the floor?)

You can mount these (on tripods) or have them unmounted. The konovas have a reputation for good value for money. As others have said Kessler are known for premium quality at premium prices.

-Creating a "Rig":

The Photography and Cinema rig featured on the CheesyCam website is a pretty good value rig which gives you a load of mounting points for your audio recorder, mic etc. The Korean Gini rigs are also known for good quality and good value. Some of the prices that people like Zacuto charge for rigs is comical. £2k for a rig made of about £75 worth of parts.

- A way to affix h4n and ntg2 (extra shoe mounts etc?)

One of the main reasons to get a rig... was for me anyway.

- do i need a follow/pull focus? or can it be done by hand

I don't use one. You need to have a decent eyepiece/evf/focus peaking though, unless you have time to set your shots carefully in advance (often I don't).

-Inexpensive ViewFinder (zacuto seems expensive)

The carryspeed isn't bad. The Zacuto is expensive but the optics in the new version are actually pretty good (especially compared to some of the cheap lcdvf clones out there, and indeed the original Zacutos which sucked)

-Do I need a monopod? Shoulder rig?

Again, this depends on exactly what you're going to be doing. Lots of handheld work where you wont have time to set up a tripod? Then having some kind of support is really useful.

-Can I get buy with h4n & ntg2? Do I need wireless mics? Beachtek? (i'm not that familiar with audio)

Once again... It depends. Beachtek does much the same job as the h4n, I personally wouldn't bother with both. Lavs can be very useful for interviews in noisey places. But it's dependent on exactly what you're going to be doing.

Look - the thing is, there is no off the shelf solution for the specifics of what YOU are going to be doing with your video work. Before dropping thousands on a huge range of kit that you've been recommended, or which you think you might need, you should use what you already have, work out where the shortcomings are, and use that to really understand what it is you NEED to upgrade in order to create the type of work that's going to make you money.

[jasonmillard81]

Thanks again guys!  Before I pull the trigger I saw John Brawleys video that was just posted with the new BMPCC.  Between that and the GH3 it's insane the variety we have to make excellent videos. 

I still think I may spend the 3k for the 5D MKIII. Tell me if you agree or disagree:

1. Better than all comparable cameras in low light noise
2. BMPCC can't take pictures or do running time lapses (I'd like to I,prove at both)
3. Excellent video at FF although the GH3 may be slightly better, probably correct in post-sharpening

My three main reasons to stick with 5D (Nikon was an idea but the d800 doesn't look as good in low light)

Until I am confident that the other cameras won't suit me. I was wondering if I could do the following:

A.  Buy a variable ND that can be used on both crop and FF lenses
B. buy a slider that can use all types of DSLR etc
C. Buy an EVF that can work on my 60d and 5d (is this possible)

[jasonmillard81]

I was having my NTG2 xlr input into the H4N recording in stereo then doing dual mono in FCPX seemed pretty good with hiss reduction at 50%... Maybe i'll post some samples....the more mobile the better if juiced link is that much better i'd consider...also maybe an inexpensive wireless system to mount on a hot shoe...

Also I think I was drunk when I wrote this hahah I am a hobbyist and a public school teacher I do not have the funds or the desire to spend 3k on just a body!  I did the math since I need a Variable ND and a slider for nice film shots...

I'm really stuck on making a decision...paralysis by analysis as they say!

5D MK II or the GH3 ... i'd say GH3 but from what I see ISO and low light is a problem...I may want to shoot at night, indoors, at a bar, underlit areas etc... and i'm worried about the sharpness/quality of the 5D MK II compared to the GH3 ...

at this point i'm leaning toward 5D MK II refurb on Canon's site... then getting a Tamron 24-70 2.8 with VC (IS)

Thoughts?

[c3hammer]

These are tough times to decide which direction to go with new camera bodies.  There are so many options right now for incredible image quality, it's astounding.  The promise of newer cams becoming available makes it even more difficult.

I have been using a T3i for a couple years and like you, I'm frustrated with Canon's soft image.  I invested in a number of great lenses and I'm stuck for the time being.  The combination of some great glass and the incredible usability of Magic Lantern are keeping me put for the time being.

If I weren't vested in Canon glass, I'd be looking closely at the new DMC-G6 from Panasonic.  It has virtually every spec I have been looking for in a new Canon body.  Super sharp moire free GH2 sensor, 1080-60p, focus peaking, onboard time lapse, sweep panorama, 2.4x ETC zoom.  The only thing it lacks is clean ISO 3200 low light ability.

http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/g6/index.html

For the price of a 5D3 you could get the G6, Lumix 12-35 f/2.8 IS and a Voitlander 25mm f/0.95.  This combo would give an equivalent focal length of 24 - 168 at f/2.8 if you include the ETC mode all with IS.  Then you have the 25mm f/0.95 for pretty nice low light capability up to ISO 1600 or so.  It's super light weight and will work on your glidecam easily.  Add a nice light weight carbon tripod and fluid head, maybe a slider down the road and a Zoom or Tascam for audio, a couple small LED lights and you'd have a perfect gorilla setup that all fits in one small backpack.

You can almost do this whole and complete setup for the cost of a new 5D3 with a kit lens.  If I were you right now, I'd stick with the 60D, add Magic Lantern and work on your audio and lighting kits.  Over the next 6 months cams like the 70D, 7DII, this Panny G6, BMD Pocket cam and maybe others will all be out and available to better judge image quality and usability.

In the end of the day, audio, lighting and story telling are orders of magnitude more important than sensor resolving power.  For now I'm sticking with the one I brung to the dance and will keep working on my craft rather than chasing the holy grail via my wallet

Cheers,
Pete
https://vimeo.com/petecarney