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Author Topic: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100  (Read 17229 times)

3kramd5

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2013, 05:09:11 PM »
please explain what do you mean with this:

But it's not reasonable to expect those algorithms to differ by more than a minor amount, and Nikon cameras are notorious for royally screwing up white balance in exactly the way the original poster has discovered. I'd go so far as to suggest that the cameras are unacceptable as shipped, though the problems should vanish in an ICC managed workflow.

It's a pretty straightforward statement. Even though they use different algorithms, they should come up with relatively close results. In this case, the camera may be defective, but using the process he suggested at but didn't explain in detail, it wouldn't matter.
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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2013, 05:09:11 PM »

TrumpetPower!

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2013, 05:40:07 PM »
please explain what do you mean with this:

But it's not reasonable to expect those algorithms to differ by more than a minor amount, and Nikon cameras are notorious for royally screwing up white balance in exactly the way the original poster has discovered. I'd go so far as to suggest that the cameras are unacceptable as shipped, though the problems should vanish in an ICC managed workflow.

It's a pretty straightforward statement. Even though they use different algorithms, they should come up with relatively close results. In this case, the camera may be defective, but using the process he suggested at but didn't explain in detail, it wouldn't matter.

Egg sack lily.

The cameras should produce onboard JPEGs close enough that you're not going to tell the one from the other just by the white balance, even if they're not exactly the same (and you wouldn't expect them to be exactly the same). But if you're doing color critical work and using an ICC-managed workflow, all that matters is the actual raw data and the camera's wild-assed guesses about proper white balance don't even enter into the equation.

Still, there's no excuse for a white balance system as screwed up as Nikon's. Few people even know that it's something that can be worked around, let alone have the patience to work around it. And you shouldn't have to work around it. It's hardly rocket surgery; it should just work.

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TrumpetPower!

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2013, 05:48:49 PM »
show me example of the Nikons inferior AWB
the AWB is easy to correct/change  in-house if the results not are as you like.

See that little red “1” at the bottom of the page? Click on it.

Or google "Nikon green cast."

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b&

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2013, 08:08:33 PM »
Mikael, you always seem eager to post DR scenarios which favor Nikon.  We know you have a D800, 5DII, and QPcard. Do you happen to have a light source with a constant, known color temperature? Actually, the packaging if a new bulb should indicate the temp in Kelvin units, and if you take shots one after another, it's constant enough.  Perhaps you'd be willing to shoot that QPcard with both cameras, and show us a straight-out-of-camera JPG with the WB set to the color temp stated on the bulb packaging?  Just a thought...
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Aglet

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2013, 11:20:37 PM »
I'm actually curious about those WB differences too.
I haven't specifically compared Can vs Nik WB but I have noticed a difference between Nik's, Can's or Pentax on the same scenes.  Even between a D800 and a d5100 on the same outdoor scene, both in AWB, with similar lenses, they rendered quite different results when the light started to change in the evening.  While the sun was higher the WB rendering was very satisfactory and nearly identical.

Would also be interested in seeing if the latest d800 firmware actually addressed any of that WB issue compared to the previous firmware.

Canon's WB seemed to make a good improvement when they started using that 63(?) zone color-sensitive metering sensor.  7D and 60D's auto WB renderings were almost always pleasing in a variety of different kinds of lighting and eval metering was far more accurate than previous bodies which tended to under/over-expose fairly often unless manually corrected for the subject matter's color.  Nikon supposedly had this technology first but I think Canon implemented it much better.

BrettS

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2013, 09:03:37 PM »
Mikael, you always seem eager to post DR scenarios which favor Nikon.  We know you have a D800, 5DII, and QPcard. Do you happen to have a light source with a constant, known color temperature? Actually, the packaging if a new bulb should indicate the temp in Kelvin units, and if you take shots one after another, it's constant enough.  Perhaps you'd be willing to shoot that QPcard with both cameras, and show us a straight-out-of-camera JPG with the WB set to the color temp stated on the bulb packaging?  Just a thought...
Seriously, Mikael, this would be very interesting to see. Any possibility you could tack this onto your To-Do list?

AndyG

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 09:34:36 PM »
Here is a frame grab of the actual video - Canon 60D on the left, Nikon D7100 on the right. The Nikon image has an unattractive cast to it - not sure if you classify it as yellow or green. The Canon image is more accurate color wise and produces a slightly sharper picture, but there is moire present on the box in the Canon 60D video that's not present on the D7100 video.

Going back to my original photos of the LCD Screens - realize that the soft image you see on the Nikon D7100 LCD Screen is as good as it gets - I was focusing using a Zacuto Z-Finder and the focus was accurate - the Nikon in zoom mode produces an unacceptably soft image on the LCD that is pathetic for focusing.

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 09:34:36 PM »

AndyG

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 11:42:13 PM »
No more experiments for me - I sold the Nikon D7100 the next day and decided to stick with Canon.

The Nikon D7100 had all of the default settings and I believe it was on Standard Profile. If there's a way to get the Live View Zoom mode to work better for focusing, I'd like to know about it.

TheSuede

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2013, 04:47:40 PM »
No doubt the Nikon has some problems, but then so does the Canon. Both of them are incorrect in their color rendering, but the Nikon camera usually tend in one direction (pulling yellow, orange and red towards the "clockwise" if you think of colors as in a color circle) and Canon in the other. Canon usually pulls orange, red, purple and blue in towards the red center, making yellow>orange and form the other direction; blue>purple.

Neither camera is usable for "good" color straight out of the box in full automatic settings, but it could be argued the Canon errs in a more pleasant way (on which I agree).

Absolute color temperatures, in the way that camera manufacturers indicate them by "Kelvin" simply does not exist. At least they're very rare, the one true example you can find out in reality nowadays are high-efficiency halogen bulbs. Anything other than this has a +/- green/magenta tint away from the CCT line of "Kelvin color temperature".

Shooting in the most common light indoors today, fluorescents, you have a very distinct tint towards green if you don't compensate for the errors induced by the light. This is exactly what SHOULD happen.

My guess is that Canon partly compensates for this out-of-the box, which can be seen if you shoot something in true 3000K light - here the Canon cameras turn very much to red.

That said, Canon is vastly better in the way it allows you to download color-compensation into the camera (it's the jpg-engine that handles raw-color conversion for movies and LV) via the Canon Profile Editor. If you want production quality color straight out of the camera, this is the only way to go. Nikon has no such possibility, you need to correct colors in post-production to get accurate results. This in-camera adjustments only allow for WB finetuning, not for real color correction.

WB is not the same as color correction. It is the first part of color correction, but the main part of heavy lifting happens later, in the color conversion of the raw file. WB balances the average strengths of three unknown raw channels, the rest of the profile translates the result into human-vision based color.

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Re: Canon 60D vs Nikon D7100 - 2 Problems I Noticed with the Nikon D7100
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2013, 04:47:40 PM »