May 25, 2013, 11:03:56 PM

Author Topic: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??  (Read 4770 times)

iggyotis

  • Guest
using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« on: August 04, 2011, 04:35:17 AM »
Hi everyone,

I've just been asked to take some product shots for a small homewares website so things like cushions, blankets etc. Pics like this:
http://www.urbanara.de/wohnen/wolldecken/73/plaid-caracas-decke-aus-100-merinowolle-in-drei-bunten-varianten-130x170-cm
http://www.urbanara.de/wohnen/wolldecken/26/decke-arequipa-reines-peruanisches-baby-alpaka-in-fischgrat-dekor-130x180-cm

I need to bring my own equipment but I only have my camera and lenses:
5D11
50 1.4
100 2.8
35 1.4

So I need a lighting setup so after some research I'm thinking:
2 umbrellas or softboxes - any preference on which to use here? I need to take my equipment to their studio so I'm thinking maybe umbrellas as they are more portable? Although I like the idea of softer light.
2 stands for lights
2 lights - around 500w maybe? Again any preferences on wattage I should use?
a reflector in case i need some help adding light to areas
white roll and stand for this
Light meter

What does everyone think of this setup and am I missing anything?? I'll be going to my local Calumet shop in Germany but as my German isn't great, if anyone can suggest any products from Calumet that would be even more amazing!

Thanks:)

canon rumors FORUM

using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« on: August 04, 2011, 04:35:17 AM »

bycostello

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 817
    • View Profile
    • London Weddings
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 05:02:00 AM »
you could do it with speedlights...    what kit you got already?

iggyotis

  • Guest
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 05:04:52 AM »
Forgot to say I have a 430EX II as well...so I'm wondering whether to buy a more powerful flash (580EX II) to be the master and whether I can use these two instead of buying constant lights?

bycostello

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 817
    • View Profile
    • London Weddings
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 06:05:12 AM »
no reason why you couldn't do it with a 430..  I favour my 580, and 550 (oldie but a goldie!) over my 430 as little more power but for close up shots it'll do the job easy.

What you probablly want to do is get the flash off camera, so if you are shopping an st-e2 is probablly a good buy.

I don't like using speedlights with umbrellas as especially stacked up with radio triggers the usable light verses the umbrella size are 2 vastly different things. i.e. the flash is firing into the top quadrant of the umbrella and not the centre.

So I'd recomend a lastolite ezybox or similar to soften your light, not too expensive and very good product.  They come as kits too (as well as seperatly) so you can buy it with a  stand.

But if you are not sure what you need, don't forget Calumet hire kit too, so might be a better option till you work out what you need.

I'd recemoned;
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/lastolite_ezybox_hotshoe_kit_60cm_x_60cm/753-769b
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/canon_speedlite_remote_transmitter_st_e2_for_eos_3/321-001q

better off camera kit though would be
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/pocketwizard_flextt5_transceiver_for_canon/352-000b
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/pocketwizard_minitt1_transmitter_for_canon/352-000a



iggyotis

  • Guest
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 07:49:54 AM »
thanks for the response bycostello!

So you think that I can do the shoot by just using the flash? I would like to maybe take two lights so that I'm not getting any harsh shadows...do you think it makes more sense to buy two continuos lights or should I buy the 580 flash and use this as a master and sync them together....will the effect be relatively similar to using continuos lights?

I will certainly ask Calumet about renting as well.

bycostello

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 817
    • View Profile
    • London Weddings
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 08:59:07 AM »
use the st-e2 as a master and the flash off camera.  2 would be better.

There is nothing that you can do with hot lights that you can't do with flash.  you lose the modeling lights but gain a much cheaper and more portable system.  given as you say 1st time with lights i don't see the need to start paying a fortune before you really know what you want or need.  At the end of the day you are shooting static objects you don't need any fancy set ups.

good resources to look at;
http://strobist.blogspot.com/  look at all the lighting 101 stuff to start.
http://www.joemcnally.com/blog/  look for his you tube stuff too
http://www.prophotonut.com/

3 of the best speedlight experts out there... even if McNally is Nikon!

iggyotis

  • Guest
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 09:06:20 AM »
so how do I make the light diffused? using umbrellas or softboxes?

canon rumors FORUM

Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 09:06:20 AM »

leGreve

  • Rebel T4i
  • ****
  • Posts: 104
  • Full time photographer and film maker legreve.com
    • View Profile
    • leGreve Photography
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 09:34:29 AM »
I do those kinds of shots 8 hours a day 7 days a week... You can get by with 2 lamps.
We use 2400watts to use in cooperation with daylight.

We shoot with reflectors most the time and for textiles I would even use a grid to really make the texture pop.
For the white outs we shoot 1 lamp with reflector through a large 230cm x 130cm homemade diffuser made from frost filter and a wooden frame and then soften the shot with 1 or 2 white boards.

One thing you have to remember is that the world only has one lamp... once you start messing with lighting from several directions you start bending the truth and pretty fast photos of products will look out of place or unnatural.

The environment shots I would definately shoot as daylight and then an indirect lamp whose light will support the daylight direction. For softening I would again use a white board.

The white boards we have are large styrofoam 1.5 inch thick boards. They can probably be bought from most large retailers of photographic and video equipment.

Two examples of something I did this week... Copyrighted ofcourse.

Bedroom:
Lamp at camera left bouncing on walls and window > aids the light direction and makes it a bit softer.
Whiteboard camera right > in fact a couple I think. Adjust the distance per taste.
Depending on motive: F8 - F11/16 not higher... it get tideous shooting more than one second (our Sinars with ancient PhaseOne backs are touchy about shutter speeds longer than 1 second for some reason).

White out:
Lamp through diffuser camera right pretty high up. Adjust height per taste of shadow.
White board camera left completely up against the table, just out of camera view.
High aperture unless client wants DOF... We shoot F16-22 on almost all of these.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 09:40:46 AM by leGreve »
Sony FS100, 18-200 - 5D III -  24-70 2.8L II - 70-200 2.8L II IS USM - 100 2.8L IS USM Macro - Macbook Pro(early 2011) - Sennheiser G3 with Rode Lav - www.legreve.com

iggyotis

  • Guest
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2011, 09:48:48 AM »
Hi leGreve, many thanks for replying!

I do those kinds of shots 8 hours a day 7 days a week... You can get by with 2 lamps.
We use 2400watts to use in cooperation with daylight.
these are exactly the kind of thing I'd be after...so you dont use flashes but prefer constant light? is there any chance you can show a link to the lamp type products so I'm sure of exactly what you mean? Also you say you can get by with two lamps but for the whiteouts you use 1 so are you using 2 for the environmental shots?

We shoot with reflectors most the time and for textiles I would even use a grid to really make the texture pop.
"grid"...is this the thing that goes into a softbox right? You use a homemade diffuser but could I buy a softbox as I'm not sure I'd be up to building this?

The environment shots I would definately shoot as daylight and then an indirect lamp whose light will support the daylight direction. For softening I would again use a white board.
if the environmental shots can only be shot in a room with no window (i am waiting to see the set up) what are my options there? Just use the one lamp again?



EELinneman

  • PowerShot G1 X
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
    • View Profile
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 09:49:04 AM »
I just have to jump in.  The response that leGreve gave above (well, and below too) is perfect.  It's helpful, insightful, not demeaning and exactly what learners need.  I see way too much slamming people when they ask a question, do something not perfect in a picture or have an idea that doesn't match with somebody else.  Thanks leGreve for your response!

Eric

I do those kinds of shots 8 hours a day 7 days a week... You can get by with 2 lamps.
We use 2400watts to use in cooperation with daylight.

We shoot with reflectors most the time and for textiles I would even use a grid to really make the texture pop.
For the white outs we shoot 1 lamp with reflector through a large 230cm x 130cm homemade diffuser made from frost filter and a wooden frame and then soften the shot with 1 or 2 white boards.

One thing you have to remember is that the world only has one lamp... once you start messing with lighting from several directions you start bending the truth and pretty fast photos of products will look out of place or unnatural.

The environment shots I would definately shoot as daylight and then an indirect lamp whose light will support the daylight direction. For softening I would again use a white board.

The white boards we have are large styrofoam 1.5 inch thick boards. They can probably be bought from most large retailers of photographic and video equipment.

Two examples of something I did this week... Copyrighted ofcourse.

Bedroom:
Lamp at camera left bouncing on walls and window > aids the light direction and makes it a bit softer.
Whiteboard camera right > in fact a couple I think. Adjust the distance per taste.
Depending on motive: F8 - F11/16 not higher... it get tideous shooting more than one second (our Sinars with ancient PhaseOne backs are touchy about shutter speeds longer than 1 second for some reason).

White out:
Lamp through diffuser camera right pretty high up. Adjust height per taste of shadow.
White board camera left completely up against the table, just out of camera view.
High aperture unless client wants DOF... We shoot F16-22 on almost all of these.

neuroanatomist

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 8681
    • View Profile
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 10:00:56 AM »
Thanks leGreve for your response!

Agreed!  The only comment I'd make is reagarding:

The white boards we have are large styrofoam 1.5 inch thick boards. They can probably be bought from most large retailers of photographic and video equipment.

IMO, any time you go to a "large retailer of photographic and video equipment" for something like that, you're asking to pay more money.  If I wanted to buy large styrofoam boards or lighter foamcore for a backdrop, I'd go to a craft store.
EOS 1D X, EOS 7D, and lots of lenses
_____________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

leGreve

  • Rebel T4i
  • ****
  • Posts: 104
  • Full time photographer and film maker legreve.com
    • View Profile
    • leGreve Photography
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 08:01:14 PM »
Hi leGreve, many thanks for replying!

The lamps we use are ancient Bron genny lamps. The generators vary from 1600-3200 watts. These can be had on the grey market for a bargain since every once in a while some old timer either quits or crashes. These old Brons are going steady after more than 20 years. Does help that our studio manager used to sell them though ;)

Using 1 or two for white outs is a matter of taste. You probably get the feeling that I like to play by lights rules, that's why I use 1 lamp most of the time. My colleagues how ever use two... one main light off right and from behind and then a soft light from the front to soften.
I don't like this as it is not natural. I use one of the large styro boards to bounce the main light and pick up the rest in photoshop (or even better in the raw file in Capture One).

I almost always put a second lamp on when doing shots like that yarn. This has the grid... I think the proper word is not grid but something else. Maybe "honeycomb" or something like that, it goes inside the reflector anyways. I use either the tight one or the very open one.

You could use a soft box... it's pretty much the same thing. I think the reason we have those large screens is because our boss is a bit on the "let's save money" side. It's ok since they work fine. The frost filter works pretty much as the soft box does, so yes, I myself would probably buy a soft box as well.


If you're doing pure studio shots, it gets a bit tricky. When I was an apprentice, I worked in a large daylight studio with all white walls and ceilings. I think the only reason this studio could still work during winter (winter is similar to no windows ;) ), was because we could step some meters away from the walls and build the "room" there. Then we would bounce 1 or two lamps off the wall to act as a broad light source like the sun. The thing is, if you do it with 1 lamp you need it a bit further away from the wall than with two lamps and it also has to be a bit more powerful... again depending on aperture. In this case I'm thinking F11/16.

This might do the trick of bringing out texture in the subject as well, but if it doesn't we would need a 3rd lamp to skim across the subject with a honeycomb in camera height (from the same side as the bounced light... see file below.

As often as possible I would try to get at least light from the side. The only time when I would light from the same direction as I shooting is when I try to light up the front of the subject and even then I would try to make it come from the side and try to hit the subject evenly.
Imagine you point that 3rd lamp more or less directly on the sofa. You'd get one side light than the other. To avoid this you turn the lamp off to the side as if you were lighting just past the sofa. Instead you're actually hitting the sofa with edge light on the side closest to the lamp and direct light on the side furthest away. That would balance things out a bit.
Or in other words... try to center the lamp just off the corner furthest away from the lamp.

This is of course by no means a set of rules but a guideline that can be altered and changed according to taste and needs :)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:07:53 PM by leGreve »
Sony FS100, 18-200 - 5D III -  24-70 2.8L II - 70-200 2.8L II IS USM - 100 2.8L IS USM Macro - Macbook Pro(early 2011) - Sennheiser G3 with Rode Lav - www.legreve.com

leGreve

  • Rebel T4i
  • ****
  • Posts: 104
  • Full time photographer and film maker legreve.com
    • View Profile
    • leGreve Photography
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2011, 08:14:54 PM »
Added info:

It just dawned on me that you are actually asking in regards to a job hehe.

Basically, soft boxes might do the trick for you, placed off to the side. I would probably use one very large box or two smaller. (Instead of the wall... you might not have a white wall? :O)
I would use a 3rd box in case you can't get styro boards or similar. Just don't over do that 3rd lamp as it can end up looking a bit flat. I think the first image you linked too is a wee bit flat.

I would use the 100mm on F11/16 for the white outs. and depending on the setup the 35 and 50 for the other shots. For some of the larger white outs you might have to use the smaller lenses to get sharpness from start to finish. The 100mm could also be used for the environment shot if the client likes depth of field.

I hope this doesn't confuse you too much hehe. Remember, in the end it's what the client wants that counts. We just select the right tool to do the job.

In regards to umbrellas... I don't like them too much. They are a strange thing. I think they are mainly for portraiture rather than "lifestyle". I go with 4 lamps, 3 soft boxes, 2/3 reflectors, a honey comb or two and that's it.

Wattage... I dunno, with direct soft box light 2 or 3 500watts might be enough. I'm damaged goods since I haven't tried shooting lifestyle with my own Bowens lamps yet :(
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:19:47 PM by leGreve »
Sony FS100, 18-200 - 5D III -  24-70 2.8L II - 70-200 2.8L II IS USM - 100 2.8L IS USM Macro - Macbook Pro(early 2011) - Sennheiser G3 with Rode Lav - www.legreve.com

iggyotis

  • Guest
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2011, 03:40:14 AM »
wow I dont know what to say! Thank you SO much for all this info legreve...I am so appreciative that you took the time to write all that:) this really helps a hell of a lot.

yesterday I saw the set up and they actually have large floor to ceiling windows with loads of daylight coming through so I just wanted to ask, would you ever use that light and add a diffuser panel over the window and use this as one of your "lamps"? maybe use a softbox on the other side if necessary or a reflector to fill in the shadows? Maybe it depends on how much light is coming through but just wanted to see if you would "use" what they have in some way.

The company are now going to pay for the equipment which is amazing, so I just need Calumet to put together a list of what they need to buy so I can show them and they can order it...I've picked out some things and I would really appreciate if you could see whether I';m no the right track...:
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/bowens_hotlite_500w_230v/bw3561uk
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/calumet_universal_speedring/rd3100
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/calumet_8_2_5m_light_stand/mf6030
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/calumet_nova_36_x_48_92_x_122_x_61cm_soft_box_white_interior/rm3148

Also, are the lights hard to set up? I think I will only be able to see all the equipment on the day of the shoot so I'm worrying that I wont know how to put it all together!

leGreve

  • Rebel T4i
  • ****
  • Posts: 104
  • Full time photographer and film maker legreve.com
    • View Profile
    • leGreve Photography
Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2011, 12:29:00 PM »
The daylight with diffuser is actually a good idea. It will steal one stop on the aperture, but with eliminate harsh shadows. During summer this is exactly how we would shoot.

I dunno those Hotlites. I doubt they are hard to work out. The Bowens Geminis I have (only 500w.. I really would like a bit more wattage, but what the heck) are extremely easy to work out. They also have a card slot, so with two cards in them, I can just put on a Pocket Wizard and I got nice wireless sync.

Just make sure that if they are generator lamps or not... :) I can't tell from that website.
Sony FS100, 18-200 - 5D III -  24-70 2.8L II - 70-200 2.8L II IS USM - 100 2.8L IS USM Macro - Macbook Pro(early 2011) - Sennheiser G3 with Rode Lav - www.legreve.com

canon rumors FORUM

Re: using lights for first time and not sure what set up to get??
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2011, 12:29:00 PM »