July 26, 2014, 05:33:21 AM

Author Topic: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software  (Read 51410 times)

pdirestajr

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
    • flickr
Re: Customers to stop buying Adobe software
« Reply #210 on: May 08, 2013, 07:57:40 PM »
I'll bite.
I'm fine with paying a subscription fee. It's a write-off. It's only 19.99 for everything if you upgraded to CS6 (which I did).

I also have no doubt when it is close to my year being up, they will try really hard to get me to renew with "deals" like, "Renew by date x to get your next year for 19.99! Wow! What an amazing savings! But wait, order within the next 10 minutes and we will throw in this FREE gift with purchase!!!"

But I am a professional designer and will use every program.

Pure photogs can get away with just using Lightroom.
7D | 5DII | EOS-3 | Nikon F3 | Mamiya 645 Pro-TL

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Customers to stop buying Adobe software
« Reply #210 on: May 08, 2013, 07:57:40 PM »

RGF

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1231
  • How you relate to the issue, is the issue.
    • View Profile
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #211 on: May 08, 2013, 08:07:56 PM »
If you are just a photographer and not in multimedia which I find hard to believe, then a version of photoshop is £17 a month which I also see as good value, compared to spending the full outlay on PS Extended which is £649, then a new version will be out in 18 months with an upgrade path of 50% off so thats £900 for one programme. or £204 a year for PS CC.

TBH I feel most of the people who are complaining are not current subscribers to CS anyway and get it some how under the rug...

A price increase is a price increase, no matter how you spin it.  And for most photographers it is a hefty price increase. 

After the initial investment, Photoshop was $11.11/mo. if you bought *every* update ($200/18 mos.) or $5.55/mo. if you skipped a version and bought every other update. Now Adobe wants $19.99/mo., every month, for the rest of your working life.  For many photographers this nearly doubles, or more than triples, the long term cost.  How is that "a good value"?  ???

And yes I am talking about photographers who buy it legally.  Your "feeling" that most of the people who are complaining "get it some how under the rug" is just plain wrong.  Most people who are complaining recognize a big price increase when they see it.  You just have to do the math to see what's happening.

I am complaining and I am legal.    Price is too high - plus I can get upgrades for less with NAPP,discount.   Also I paid for Photoshop original.   If I had not, then $20/month would be a good deal.

$15/month for both PS& LR fixed for a 5 yrs

CanonGirl

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
    • LeeAlaniPix
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #212 on: May 08, 2013, 09:09:05 PM »
I notice that some are calling $20/month a good deal, so for those who use Photoshop Extended and upgrade every two years, here's the price comparision over 10 years for the old purchase upgrade option vs the new CC option:

Old (List) = $2595; CC = $2400. So, basically, Adobe is making users pay nearly full retail, as compared to the old model over 10 years, for those just needing Photoshop. Adobe is really trying to push customers into the complete package by not offerring a meaningful deal for the single-package option, but they are offering a reasonable deal for the entire package. If one performs the same calculation for, say, 20 years, then Adobe has slightly increased the price of their single-package option, compared to the old model (Old List = $4590; CC = $4800).  Obviously, if you're one who only upgrades every other version, then CC is a big increase in cost.

cayenne

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1201
    • View Profile
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #213 on: May 08, 2013, 10:24:30 PM »


So, if I read your quoted part correctly...

I could join CC paid....download the archived version (current version?) of CS6, which would run stand alone, not requiring CC account, and then quit and still have CS6 which would run indefinitely?

If so, that sounds like a bit of a bargain...?

cayenne

Nope... with your account, they issue a license code, much like any current adobe product... you cancel your account, the code is canceled, and any further access is canceled without that code being active... so otherwise it wont work beyond that point.

But wait, current CS6 doesn't phone home, right?
I was assuming that the 'archived' old versions they spoke about, would be stand alone CS6...
So, it sounds to me like you subscribe for a year, you can get the CC for a year, BUT you can also download CS6 (maybe the Production suite?), and have that as a stand alone download.

So, you have that, complete your year CC, and still have CS6 standalone you downloaded, which doesn't phone home...that you can use to your hearts desire?

Of course, they haven't said which legacy apps they'll have for this, but it sounds to me like you can get the old non-phone home versions of things you can download and use, they'll be unsupported, but if you got the CS6 Suite for the year of CC price, at the end of the year, you could quite and end up with CS6 suite for less than what it costs now?

cayenne

It depends... At my home computer I have CS5 stand alone... at my work office I have CS6, but that is through the CC... That is controlled through the adobe device manager... the device manager does the phone home stuff...  So yeah...  If we were to stop paying the CC i'm fairly sure eventually I would lose CS6

Ok...my assumption was that the 'archived' version of CS6 Production Suite, if that is one that is offered, would be the same as the one you can purchase today without any need for a cloud connection.

If that is the case, then it would be worthwhile to pay for CC for one year, download the standalone CS6 Suite (if offered as one of the archived versions that the Adobe Rep on here mentioned), and then quit CC after the first year and just use the stand alone 'archive', unsupported older CS6 Suite/Tools till either something better comes along, or Adobe has a moment of clarity and switches back to versions you can buy and not have to rent.

Anyway, it might be interesting to see what exactly these "Archived Downloadable Older versions" might end up being....and see if my thought process is proved to be true.

C

Normalnorm

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 163
    • View Profile
Re: Alternatives to Adobe Software
« Reply #214 on: May 09, 2013, 12:31:13 AM »
The rant thread about Adobe's new subscription model is 6 pages long and growing fast. The thread about alternatives is a mere four posts long, only one of which actually names any software.  Makes it pretty clear that no matter how much ranting there is, Adobe can do what they like.

+1
Many have spoken boldly about switching but I have yet to see a SW list that is credible.
The alternatives I would guess at are:

Capture One or Aperture to replace LR (though I understand one will still be able to buy boxed versions of this indefinitely)

And maybe Paintshop Pro to replace PS? The Gimp is also suggested but again I hear very few reports from actual users.
Of course there is always Snapseed and Picasa. ;)

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3284
    • View Profile
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #215 on: May 09, 2013, 01:11:55 AM »
Many companies start switching to subscription-based license instead of a perpetual license (MS Office, GraphPad Prism, SPSS, etc). For those who cannot pay >$1000 to buy a software, $20-30 may not be a bad alternative, especially during times when economy is so bad.

I'm sorry but I don't really get many of you guys. Lightroom stays as a standalone application. For some reasons, many amateurs think they have to have Photoshop (and it has to be the latest version, of course) to do their photo editing. Old version of Photoshop/Photoshop Elements/Lightroom may be more than enough for a lot of us. I personally have Master Collection CS5.5 which I got at a discount when I was a student and I'll use it until I upgrade to an unsupported camera or new OS.

Lightroom can't do plenty of things and Elements has a few very key cripples. And don't forget these are video DSLRs these days so what about Premiere Pro?

Also they already have now said that LR CC may end up with more advanced features as time goes on. I.E. they are PS CS6ing LR5 too most likely. (they are at least adding new camera support to both, at least for the time being, which is good)

dgatwood

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • 300D, 400D, 6D
    • View Profile
Re: The biggest problem with Adobe Creative Cloud
« Reply #216 on: May 09, 2013, 03:10:22 AM »
once you stop paying adobe, you can't even open your files it seems!
It's not that they lock your file or anything. Once you stop paying, your software will no longer work, just the software not the file. For example, if you work in PS and save your file as TIFF and cancel the subscription, you can use other program to open your TIFF file. So you can convert all your PSD files to TIFF before cancelling. That's why Adobe doesn't have to make any "READER" program. What's the point of making PSD reader when you can view it but cannot edit anything. Then may as well convert them to TIFF, save the trouble. Also TIFF can store layers too.

If what you do with Photoshop can be accurately stored in a TIFF, you don't need Photoshop.  The problem with Photoshop files is that nothing else can fully handle its file format—layer effects, per-character text size/tracking, per-line leading, 16 bits per channel, layer masks, CMYK, etc., and those are just the CS3 features that cause problems for other apps.  Heaven help you if you use any of the features that Adobe has added since then, like the ability to paint on 3D objects (CS5 and later, IIRC).

So yes, you can export to a TIFF file, but if you're a serious Photoshop user, you are likely to lose a *lot*, and the resulting TIFF file won't be anything you would ever consider editing in another app, for the same reason that you would never do all your photo color adjustment on a JPEG file if you also have a RAW file for the same image.

Thus, in effect, when you stop paying, you lose access to your files.  If Adobe goes out of business, drops support for your platform, or simply prices themselves hopelessly outside your ability to pay, you effectively permanently lose access to your files, because no other app can read them or work with them.  I've frequently had to keep old software running long after companies went bankrupt or got bought and dropped those products, so a rental model just isn't something that I'm willing to pay for.  It has all the problems inherent to free Google apps, plus all the disadvantages of expensive Adobe software.

I won't even allow free software services to become part of any critical path for anything I'm doing.  If someone can take away a service at will, that service actually has negative value to me.  So you can probably guess how likely I am to pay for the privilege of having no long-term guarantee of usability.  That just doesn't make financial sense in anything but bizarro world, IMO.

With that said, I started growing concerned about Adobe's support for OS X way back when CS3 came out and it wouldn't even install on case-sensitive HFS+ without horrible hacks, and I've been growing steadily more concerned with Adobe's overall behavior and competence ever since.  That's why shortly after I bought Photoshop CS3, I also bought a copy of Pixelmator (version 1-point-something), and have also bought upgrades to Pixelmator even though I don't regularly use it.  I viewed that hundred bucks or so as a hedge against Adobe going off the deep end.

Now I'm really glad I did that.  Thanks in no small part to funding from lots of other similarly concerned Photoshop users, Pixelmator has seriously improved over those five-and-a-half years.  For example, I can't begin to tell you how happy I was to see CMYK support added to Pixelmator late last year; that removed one of the biggest obstacles to me walking away from Photoshop.  At this rate, within the next couple of years, I fully expect them to be close to file-format-handling parity with CS3.  And by the time CS6 ceases to be runnable on current versions of OS X (without a VM), Photoshop won't even be relevant to me anymore.

It was love-hate.  Now it's just hate.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: The biggest problem with Adobe Creative Cloud
« Reply #216 on: May 09, 2013, 03:10:22 AM »

dgatwood

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • 300D, 400D, 6D
    • View Profile
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #217 on: May 09, 2013, 03:18:07 AM »
Ok...my assumption was that the 'archived' version of CS6 Production Suite, if that is one that is offered, would be the same as the one you can purchase today without any need for a cloud connection.

As far as I can tell:

  • If you buy CS6 as a standalone download or DVD or whatever, you serial number causes their licensing servers to provide you with a permanent license key for your machine that never expires.
  • If you buy the CC service, the download manager asks the server for a temporary (expiring) license key on a regular basis, and your app keeps working as long as you keep paying.

The difference isn't the software.  The difference is whether you have a serial number and a permanent license key derived from it.

sylvestrerato

  • SX50 HS
  • **
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Alternatives to Adobe Software
« Reply #218 on: May 09, 2013, 03:33:33 AM »
Capture One seems really nice to replace LR but what if you shoot JPGs and not RAWs?

I used Gimp a while back and I think it's quite nice as well and can replace PS, you just need to get used to the new interface like any other software.  And by the way I've never liked PS interface.

dgatwood

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • 300D, 400D, 6D
    • View Profile
Re: Alternatives to Adobe Software
« Reply #219 on: May 09, 2013, 03:38:19 AM »
lol.. warez user will have the CC and don´t have to bother about connecting every 30 days.. wager a bet?


I'll take that one step further.  I'd give it a week after CS7 ships as a CC-only release.  Two weeks, tops.

And FWIW, my estimates tend to be conservative.  The last time I made a prediction like this, it involved a company with much better programmers and much deeper knowledge of how to lock software to particular pieces of hardware.  My bet was no more than a month.  In reality, it took something closer to 10 days, IIRC.

So when I say that I'd give it a week, don't count on more than a day or two.  :)


The rant thread about Adobe's new subscription model is 6 pages long and growing fast. The thread about alternatives is a mere four posts long, only one of which actually names any software.  Makes it pretty clear that no matter how much ranting there is, Adobe can do what they like.


+1
Many have spoken boldly about switching but I have yet to see a SW list that is credible.
The alternatives I would guess at are:

Capture One or Aperture to replace LR (though I understand one will still be able to buy boxed versions of this indefinitely)

And maybe Paintshop Pro to replace PS? The Gimp is also suggested but again I hear very few reports from actual users.
Of course there is always Snapseed and Picasa. ;)


IMO, Pixelmator is the best of the Photoshop alternatives, at least on the Mac platform.  It looks to be a lot closer to being able to actually handle all the features of Photoshop files than any of the others I've looked at so far, though it isn't fully there yet.  Since last November, it supports CMYK, but it does not yet support layer effects (promised for 2013) or 16-bit color channels.

I halfway wonder if this isn't Adobe's response to Pixelmator—trying to milk Photoshop for everything they can squeeze out of it, knowing that to compete with newer apps that more fully take advantage of modern OS X technologies, they're going to have to do a major rewrite of a 25-year-old app that has been patched and re-patched so many times that parts of it probably resemble a California city street whose opposite sides are in two different cities....

Either way, I love the post the PM team made on their blog about the whole situation:

    http://www.pixelmator.com/blog/

DFM

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 46
  • Adobe Community Professional
    • View Profile
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #220 on: May 09, 2013, 04:04:37 AM »
Correct. The archived versions of CS you will have access to as a Creative Cloud subscriber will only work during your subscription period. They are provided solely to allow customers to work with files and plugins that need to be on an older version.

As far as I can tell:

  • If you buy CS6 as a standalone download or DVD or whatever, you serial number causes their licensing servers to provide you with a permanent license key for your machine that never expires.
  • If you buy the CC service, the download manager asks the server for a temporary (expiring) license key on a regular basis, and your app keeps working as long as you keep paying.

The difference isn't the software.  The difference is whether you have a serial number and a permanent license key derived from it.

DFM

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 46
  • Adobe Community Professional
    • View Profile
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #221 on: May 09, 2013, 04:31:40 AM »
Adobe isn't splitting Lightroom into two versions; both perpetual and CC users will get Lr5. The difference is in when the free updates are released and what's inside them. Perpetual licensees get bugfixes and compatibility patches. CC subscribers may also get new features. Nobody's guaranteeing they will, just that it's legally possible.

I know this appears to contradict Adobe's argument for moving to CC, but Lightroom is part of the Consumer business along with the Elements line (the full-fat version of Photoshop and co. are in the Creative business unit, who are the ones implementing the CC system). We're not talking about running two different versions (Lr5 and Lr6), but scheduling the release of dot upgrades differently. As existing users of Creative Cloud know, Adobe have already pushed some exclusive new features to them for Dreamweaver, Illustrator, etc; but they're still called CS6. Lr will continue to have major release cycles when the version number increases, we're only talking about what happens in between those times. I'm sure Adobe would like to offer new features to perpetual license holders as well, but the lawyers say no.

The primary sales route for all consumer products is via retail (perpetual licenses and what used to be boxed products), so the fact Lr is also in the CC bundle is more of a side-effect; the same is true of Acrobat. Development will carry on as normal, there are no plans for "Lightroom CC" or "Acrobat CC", neither will Photoshop Elements go subscription-only.


In future there may well be times when new features appear in the CC-bundled version of Lr which aren't yet in the perpetual version, because Cloud subscribers get new features quicker (as SOX doesn't apply).

So how is that you say you can't continue CC and perpetual versions of programs because the code maintenance is too tricky but now you are actually splitting LR into CC and perpetual?

CTJohn

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #222 on: May 09, 2013, 07:13:58 AM »
Adobe isn't splitting Lightroom into two versions; both perpetual and CC users will get Lr5. The difference is in when the free updates are released and what's inside them. Perpetual licensees get bugfixes and compatibility patches. CC subscribers may also get new features. Nobody's guaranteeing they will, just that it's legally possible.

I know this appears to contradict Adobe's argument for moving to CC, but Lightroom is part of the Consumer business along with the Elements line (the full-fat version of Photoshop and co. are in the Creative business unit, who are the ones implementing the CC system). We're not talking about running two different versions (Lr5 and Lr6), but scheduling the release of dot upgrades differently. As existing users of Creative Cloud know, Adobe have already pushed some exclusive new features to them for Dreamweaver, Illustrator, etc; but they're still called CS6. Lr will continue to have major release cycles when the version number increases, we're only talking about what happens in between those times. I'm sure Adobe would like to offer new features to perpetual license holders as well, but the lawyers say no.

The primary sales route for all consumer products is via retail (perpetual licenses and what used to be boxed products), so the fact Lr is also in the CC bundle is more of a side-effect; the same is true of Acrobat. Development will carry on as normal, there are no plans for "Lightroom CC" or "Acrobat CC", neither will Photoshop Elements go subscription-only.


In future there may well be times when new features appear in the CC-bundled version of Lr which aren't yet in the perpetual version, because Cloud subscribers get new features quicker (as SOX doesn't apply).

So how is that you say you can't continue CC and perpetual versions of programs because the code maintenance is too tricky but now you are actually splitting LR into CC and perpetual?

I'm an amateur photographer who uses Lightroom (4.4) and Photoshop (CS5 Extended.)  I haven't updated my version of Photoshop because I use the program a couple times a month, for HDR and layers adjustments.  I use Lightroom regularly, but there are many things Lightroom can't do that my version of Photoshop can.  Based on the pricing, I guess Adobe just doesn't care about users like me.

I'm no expert on Photoshop, but have invested 20 hours or so in Linda.com training.  I have purchased Photomatix for HDR, but will need to find another solution for things like layer/mask work,  content aware adjustments, etc.  I have no interest in the other applications Adobe wants to offer me as part of the subscription.

I'm sorry I wasted the time over the past couple years learning how to use Photoshop.
EOS 6D * EOS 7D * Powershot S110 * EF 24/105 f/4L * EF 70-300 f/4-5.6L * EF 100 f/2.8L Macro

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #222 on: May 09, 2013, 07:13:58 AM »

Tayvin

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
    • Tayvin Knight Photo
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #223 on: May 09, 2013, 07:56:41 AM »
Let me tell you why this is bad for us.  If Adobe thought this would be good for industry professionals they would offer an option for a License or a Creative Cloud subscription.  There's no option, which means they know most people wouldn't choose the Creative Cloud service.  The subscription prices aren't that bad right now, but we all know how Adobe is.

wsheldon

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
    • sheldon-photo
Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #224 on: May 09, 2013, 08:51:48 AM »
I'm an amateur photographer who uses Lightroom (4.4) and Photoshop (CS5 Extended.)  I haven't updated my version of Photoshop because I use the program a couple times a month, for HDR and layers adjustments.  I use Lightroom regularly, but there are many things Lightroom can't do that my version of Photoshop can.  Based on the pricing, I guess Adobe just doesn't care about users like me.

I'm no expert on Photoshop, but have invested 20 hours or so in Linda.com training.  I have purchased Photomatix for HDR, but will need to find another solution for things like layer/mask work,  content aware adjustments, etc.  I have no interest in the other applications Adobe wants to offer me as part of the subscription.

I'm sorry I wasted the time over the past couple years learning how to use Photoshop.

Very well said. I'm in exactly the same situation. I will no longer invest in Photoshop software, books or training and feel the money I've already spent is partially wasted. At least it appears Lightroom will remain a viable tool for a while yet, but I'll need to explore other pixel-editors if Photoshop Elements won't cut it. Frustrating.
Canon 6D & 50D, nice set of lenses

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« Reply #224 on: May 09, 2013, 08:51:48 AM »