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Author Topic: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]  (Read 16577 times)

dslrdummy

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2013, 01:38:42 AM »
I'm very happy with my RX100 with its zeiss 1.8 zoom thanks.

That would be a 28mm-100mm f4.9-f13.2 equivalent, hardly anything to get very excited about.
Yeah, well, for excitement I'll just have to settle for my 70-200 2.8 ii on a FF. But for something that will fit in my pocket and take reasonable pics virtually anywhere, the Sony's not bad. Have you tried it?
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Rienzphotoz

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2013, 03:14:33 AM »
Sounds to me like Canon is in Panic Mode. Lots of new cameras No-One is asking for. First the lack-luster M without an EVF,  and now an APS-C Super Zoom (without an EVF). Keep throwing things at the wall, something will stick ... Yeah Right!!
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funkboy

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2013, 04:21:32 AM »
The concept is very nice; a potential competitor for the RX1 and other large-sensor compacts.

But I question the accuracy of the rumor that states that the sensor will be APS-C.  In a one-piece compact I think the sensor is much more likely to be the same format as the G1X, if not the same unit (at the very least I'd think it would include phase-detect AF on-chip like their other new sensors).

The whole point of using the "APS-C with the sides chopped off" sensor in the G1X was to be able to use a much smaller lens than possible with a 3:2 format sensor, as a lot less of the image circle of the lens is "wasted" (i.e. doesn't land on pixels) in close-to-square format sensors (like μ4/3 & G1X).  Somewhat smaller sensor, much smaller lens.

The other reason I think they wouldn't go full APS-C for such a camera is simple:  is there really much difference between this concept and simply releasing a short fast large-aperture zoom for the EOS-M system (perhaps along with an "enthusiast" body)?  The sensor size would be the same, there's no mirror box or backward compatibility to worry about so it's not like the size of the lens would be much different vs. a one-piece compact.  Panasonic's "power zoom" lenses have proven that there doesn't have to be much size discrepancy for interchangeables vs. built-in lenses.

privatebydesign

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2013, 07:28:35 AM »
I'm very happy with my RX100 with its zeiss 1.8 zoom thanks.

That would be a 28mm-100mm f4.9-f13.2 equivalent, hardly anything to get very excited about.

F/1.8 is ALWAYS f/1.8!! Some people are more interested in shooting in Low Light than having oh-so-trendy paper-thin DOF. YMMV.

Me:100mm f13.2; You: "oh-so-trendy paper-thin DOF" Hmm, methinks we have different ideas completely with regards dof. Besides, if low light is your muse, why use a camera with a 2.6 times worse noise factor?

I'm very happy with my RX100 with its zeiss 1.8 zoom thanks.

That would be a 28mm-100mm f4.9-f13.2 equivalent, hardly anything to get very excited about.
Yeah, well, for excitement I'll just have to settle for my 70-200 2.8 ii on a FF. But for something that will fit in my pocket and take reasonable pics virtually anywhere, the Sony's not bad. Have you tried it?

No, but I wasn't trying to make a big point about an f1.8 P&S, I have a G10 I hardly use, why would I buy another equally limited sensor sized camera?
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SwampYankee

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2013, 08:27:50 AM »
Same old 18GB sensor?

You clearly didn't read the first post ...

I'm sure it's just a variation of the same , tired, old, 18 GB sensor that is in so many of their cameras.  If they really had anything new do you think they would debut it in a powershot?  Why not the  the 70 or 7D?  The sensor will grade out the same, nothing new here.  Sensor innovation is not coming from Canon.  Have you seen what Nikon and Sony are putting out in this sensor size?  For less money?
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Lee Jay

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2013, 09:52:31 AM »
F/1.8 is ALWAYS f/1.8!! Some people are more interested in shooting in Low Light than having oh-so-trendy paper-thin DOF. YMMV.

So, my compact starts at f/2.  Is f/2 on my compact just as good in low-light as f/2 on my 5D?  Nope!  The 5D has the same noise at ISO 3200 as my compact does at ISO 200.  So I can really shoot at 16 times faster shutter speed with the 5D at f/2 compared to my compact at f/2 if I want the same image quality.

So not all f/2's are equal!

sanj

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2013, 09:53:59 AM »
Same old 18GB sensor?

You clearly didn't read the first post ...

Seems correct.
I'm sure it's just a variation of the same , tired, old, 18 GB sensor that is in so many of their cameras.  If they really had anything new do you think they would debut it in a powershot?  Why not the  the 70 or 7D?  The sensor will grade out the same, nothing new here.  Sensor innovation is not coming from Canon.  Have you seen what Nikon and Sony are putting out in this sensor size?  For less money?

yes they would,because new design sensor with smaller pixels starts with compact size sensors for Canon,  and  for others as Sony, Omnivision, Aptina  etc even smaller sensors  as  the mobile phones where the big innovations and research are today    and when they have  equipment that is accurate enough so they can expose a larger sensor area in one step so that manufacturing pays off then begins the manufacture of larger sensors.

eric_ykchan

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2013, 09:55:17 AM »
Lots of new cameras No-One is asking for.

+1

sanj

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2013, 10:00:38 AM »
Lots of new cameras No-One is asking for.

+1

Huh? I am asking for it. I believe I am someone. :)

KyleSTL

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2013, 10:27:52 AM »
I'm very happy with my RX100 with its zeiss 1.8 zoom thanks.

That would be a 28mm-100mm f4.9-f13.2 equivalent, hardly anything to get very excited about.

F/1.8 is ALWAYS f/1.8!! Some people are more interested in shooting in Low Light than having oh-so-trendy paper-thin DOF. YMMV.

+1

I think DOF equivilents are important, but they are not everything.  I would venture to say a modern 1" sensor good results at ISO 800 (similar to an APS-C sensor from 3 or 4 generations back), and a modern 1/1.7" sensor (like the BSI-CMOS in the S110) likely gives acceptable results at ISO 400 (similar to an APS-C 4 to 5 generations back).

In a given era different sized sensors will never be able to compete against each other, but looking back you might be able to get the same image quality from an S110 @ ISO 400 & f/2.0 as a 10D or 20D at the same ISO and aperture (and have all the modern features of a new camera and many more MP to boot).

The same could probably be said for a RX100 @ ISO 800 & f/1.8 and a 30D or 40D.

Depth of field does not an image make.
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RLPhoto

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2013, 10:49:06 AM »
I'm very happy with my RX100 with its zeiss 1.8 zoom thanks.

That would be a 28mm-100mm f4.9-f13.2 equivalent, hardly anything to get very excited about.

F/1.8 is ALWAYS f/1.8!! Some people are more interested in shooting in Low Light than having oh-so-trendy paper-thin DOF. YMMV.

+1

I think DOF equivilents are important, but they are not everything.  I would venture to say a modern 1" sensor good results at ISO 800 (similar to an APS-C sensor from 3 or 4 generations back), and a modern 1/1.7" sensor (like the BSI-CMOS in the S110) likely gives acceptable results at ISO 400 (similar to an APS-C 4 to 5 generations back).

In a given era different sized sensors will never be able to compete against each other, but looking back you might be able to get the same image quality from an S110 @ ISO 400 & f/2.0 as a 10D or 20D at the same ISO and aperture (and have all the modern features of a new camera and many more MP to boot).

The same could probably be said for a RX100 @ ISO 800 & f/1.8 and a 30D or 40D.

Depth of field does not an image make.

I've been using my g15 quite a bit lately and It gets some nice shallow DOF for a small sensored compact. Infact, I see little need for a camera like the g1x with a slow aperture when I get f/1.8-2.8 on the g15.

The flower shot is @ ISO 3200. The mailbox is ISO 100.

Edit: It seems that CR forums is stretching the photos, making them seem worse than they are.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 11:14:30 AM by RLPhoto »

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2013, 11:07:09 AM »
And those three images perfectly illustrate the uses and limitations of small sensor cameras.

Shot one is at f2.8, the narrowest DOF the G15 can do.

The second and third shots illustrate that even if you want to output at 800x600px the image quality is severely compromised by noise and aberrations at any kind of iso much above base.

I have a G10 and really like it, on well illuminated scenes with lower dynamic range when shot at base iso where I am not fussed about selective dof, the camera is great and gives results much better than most people gave it credit for. But cameras with those sized sensors, which are far "better" per area than anything in a DSLR, are still severely compromised in their output when pushed, even gently.

This is a great link putting P&S performance into perspective http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml The trouble is, if you are after something more, which most of us are most of the time, then small sensored P&S's can't cut it, they have to obey the laws of physics for noise and dof.
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RLPhoto

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2013, 12:02:30 PM »
And those three images perfectly illustrate the uses and limitations of small sensor cameras.

Shot one is at f2.8, the narrowest DOF the G15 can do.

The second and third shots illustrate that even if you want to output at 800x600px the image quality is severely compromised by noise and aberrations at any kind of iso much above base.

I have a G10 and really like it, on well illuminated scenes with lower dynamic range when shot at base iso where I am not fussed about selective dof, the camera is great and gives results much better than most people gave it credit for. But cameras with those sized sensors, which are far "better" per area than anything in a DSLR, are still severely compromised in their output when pushed, even gently.

This is a great link putting P&S performance into perspective http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml The trouble is, if you are after something more, which most of us are most of the time, then small sensored P&S's can't cut it, they have to obey the laws of physics for noise and dof.

I don't believe you can shake a stick at the ISO 3200 performance of a compact camera sensor. It delivers the goods, gives me a fast aperture, decent zoom range, and is well... compact.

Afterall, thats the point of a compact, versatility with decent performance. If you want to shake the stick, let's see some of your ISO 3200 compact sensor photos.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 12:04:09 PM by RLPhoto »

RLPhoto

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2013, 12:09:28 PM »
ISO 1600 W/ G15

hgraf

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Re: A New Large Sensor PowerShot Coming [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2013, 12:13:11 PM »
Sounds to me like Canon is in Panic Mode. Lots of new cameras No-One is asking for. First the lack-luster M without an EVF,  and now an APS-C Super Zoom (without an EVF). Keep throwing things at the wall, something will stick ... Yeah Right!!

Panic mode? They are number 1 in the market, yup, time to panic...

Personally, I would LOVE to have a P&S camera with the 18MB sensor in the T4i/60D/SL1/whatever. Some many people here deride that sensor, probably because they are fortunate enough to have the $1500+ it takes to go for a 6D/5DII setup.

For those of us with much less money the 18MB APS-C sensor is VERY good. Having that picture quality in a P&S body (don't need exchangable lenses, don't need a super zoom) would be heaven.

I dread it every time I go somewhere where instead of pulling out my T4i I have to pull out my P&S. I just know my P&S will do OK during the day, but in lower light it's always been very dissapointing, especially after being used to the images coming out of my T4i.

My only concern of course with Canon is cost, I don't see why they'd make this camera affordable, I wish they would though.

TTYL