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Author Topic: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor  (Read 12176 times)

jcollett

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 01:14:38 PM »
I enjoy using my Sigma DP1x but the body design and controls are quite clunky.  I'd like to see the merger of Sigma and Fuji and have Foveon tech put in a Fuji X100s style body.  It would be both a beauty and a beast!

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 01:14:38 PM »

jrista

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 01:17:58 PM »
A layered, Foveon-style sensor is definitely intriguing. It has a lot to offer, but at the same time, it also has it's limitations. From a raw spatial resolution standpoint, Foveon will probably never compete with Bayer...at least, not with the same low levels of noise. Foveon can be upscaled, but the results are not quite the same (remember, bayer has limited color resolution, but it still has full luminance resolution.)

The most intriguing technology I've seen to date that maximizes resolution and light gathering/quantum efficiency is Panasonic's MCS, or Micro Color Splitting. Instead of FILTERING colors, red light is split from the incoming light at each pixel, and directed to the appropriate neighboring pixels. The result is White + Red and White - Red pixels that, when interpolated, contain all of the color and luminance information that reached the sensor (there can still be losses due to IR Cut and transmission losses, as well as due to Q.E. losses).

Unlike either Foveon or Bayer, an MCS sensor achieves high spatial resolution as well as low noise. I'd really like to see Canon develop something like this, instead of a layered sensor...I think the end result is even better high ISO performance as well as more color-rich low ISO performance. (And, theoretically, by gathering more light overall, one would suspect dynamic range to improve as well...but I don't really know how an MCS design might affect read noise...which is really the fundamental issue Canon faces these days...noisy high frequency downstream components adding gobs of read noise.)
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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2013, 02:53:00 PM »
It could be useful in a FF, High MP, native 50 ISO 1DS body but IT WILL BE A STICKER SHOCKER.
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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 03:44:24 PM »
You will need a new type of monitor to really use it the way it could possibly be made.  Imagine no pixels, no 'resolution', just a standard size that everything is scaled to.  It might be vector-based with infinite resolution if the picture is digitally made.  Or if it captured with this type of Foveon sensor, it will have to use some math processing to figure out what color to put where.
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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2013, 04:01:14 PM »
If you're not fluent in Japanese the US patent app with same priority is US20130082343A1

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2013, 04:14:52 PM »
If you're not fluent in Japanese the US patent app with same priority is US20130082343A1

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And here I thought that fluency in Japanese was a prerequisite for all CR members...... ;)
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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2013, 05:02:31 PM »
Interesting .. wonder how Canon plans to incorporate this into their product line.

Will they start at the top or place it in a middle level camera?

Years ago introduced technology on a one off basis.  For example eye control went no where, DO has stalled but may eventually go somewhere.  Recently Canon seems to have upped their game regarding quality.  Wonder how they will position a Foveon - type sensor.

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2013, 05:02:31 PM »

paul13walnut5

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2013, 06:49:18 PM »

Years ago introduced technology on a one off basis.  For example eye control went no where,

Eye Control was on the A2E (5), 50e, 30e and 30v, and the 3, and one of the APS EOS cameras (as in APS film)   It was sold on cameras between 1992-2007 (the latest the EOS 3 was listed as a current model by canon, the most recent new model to feature ECF was the 30v, launched in 2004) so it was far from a one off basis.

Widely revered, widely derided.  It's hard to think of a more devisive feature amongst Canon users of a certain generation.  I loved it and wish they would bring it back.  It had an off switch.  I never use spot average flash metering, but I don't get upset by cameras having it.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2013, 10:45:23 PM »
You will need a new type of monitor to really use it the way it could possibly be made.  Imagine no pixels, no 'resolution', just a standard size that everything is scaled to.  It might be vector-based with infinite resolution if the picture is digitally made.  Or if it captured with this type of Foveon sensor, it will have to use some math processing to figure out what color to put where.

??? why

monitors are already full color per pixel

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2013, 11:06:41 PM »

Years ago introduced technology on a one off basis.  For example eye control went no where,

Eye Control was on the A2E (5), 50e, 30e and 30v, and the 3, and one of the APS EOS cameras (as in APS film)   It was sold on cameras between 1992-2007 (the latest the EOS 3 was listed as a current model by canon, the most recent new model to feature ECF was the 30v, launched in 2004) so it was far from a one off basis.

Widely revered, widely derided.  It's hard to think of a more devisive feature amongst Canon users of a certain generation.  I loved it and wish they would bring it back.  It had an off switch.  I never use spot average flash metering, but I don't get upset by cameras having it.

Point was not to deride eye control, but to point out that starts with technology which it tests in the marketplace.  They seem to stopped that process in the last 5 yrs and I wonder if they will make intrude the foreon sensor too early?

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2013, 01:35:43 AM »
I my opinion that´s the "surprising" announcement.

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2013, 01:58:19 AM »
Foveon rocks!  ;D
FF+Foveon=FFF
FFF+mirrorless=me happy  :P

foveon dont rock, if so there have been a good foveon sensor out by now with good high iso properties and easy to to convert  to color true pictures with out tons of mathematical calculations.
se my earlier answer:

a Foveon solution with different layers is not a good solution, there are already other solutions tested, a single cell with prismatic properties that divides the RGB to surfaces that are equal and not stratified

Foveon is NOT about high ISO.
Leica is NOT about high ISO.
Medium format is NOT about high ISO.
Why so many people are going crazy about high ISO? I understand that it's useful, specially when you are shooting for money and you need to deliver. I'm not a pro, I shoot for pleasure and I prefer noise-free low ISO camera with better DR and resolution. Sigma Merrill series Foveon is not perfect, but (correct me if I'm wrong) it is only 3-rd generation sensor and at ISO100 it kicks the color-guessing CMOS technology in their balls. :)
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ecka

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 08:55:24 AM »
Foveon rocks!  ;D
FF+Foveon=FFF
FFF+mirrorless=me happy  :P


foveon dont rock, if so there have been a good foveon sensor out by now with good high iso properties and easy to to convert  to color true pictures with out tons of mathematical calculations.
se my earlier answer:

a Foveon solution with different layers is not a good solution, there are already other solutions tested, a single cell with prismatic properties that divides the RGB to surfaces that are equal and not stratified


Foveon is NOT about high ISO.
Leica is NOT about high ISO.
Medium format is NOT about high ISO.
Why so many people are going crazy about high ISO? I understand that it's useful, specially when you are shooting for money and you need to deliver. I'm not a pro, I shoot for pleasure and I prefer noise-free low ISO camera with better DR and resolution. Sigma Merrill series Foveon is not perfect, but (correct me if I'm wrong) it is only 3-rd generation sensor and at ISO100 it kicks the color-guessing CMOS technology in their balls. :)


no it doesn't regarding  colors and how we se colors. Bayer sensors don't have a lower limit on color accuracy, they can achieve literally perfect (100% match to human eye perception) color.
http://alt-vision.com/documentation/AeroSense-2003-Oral.pdf

Diagrams that can help make sense of this can you found on pages 20, 21, and 22.
The diagram on page 22 is the one that will give you the true, better insight. Look at the human eye curves (upper left graph) and the Bayer camera curves (lower left graph)
Pay attention to their shapes, and how they interact with each other. The Bayer curves is similar to the eye curves. Blue barely crosses red, and green is definitely a hump in the middle. All the slopes are similar.

Now look at the Foveon (upper right) curve. Its nowhere close. Look at where red and blue cross. Instead of being below 10% of their peak values, they're at 50%. Blue should have been finished (totally out of the picture) by about 550n, but it's still going strong all the way to 660nm (pretty deep red). Green and red should both be sloping downward from 600nm on, but instead red is sloping up. This is example  why the Foveon sensors have considerable difficulty discriminating many colors.

Eric Fossum ones wrote, clarity and richness from  the Foveon image  is a equal wonder  as when a jumbo jet taking off.


Diagrams are just diagrams. I don't pick lenses by looking at MTF diagrams, I look at RAW images. Same with cameras. Those signals must be filtered, corrected and processed before you get a picture. Canon CMOS and Sony CMOS deliver different results, why do you think that Sigma Foveon and Canon Foveon should be the same?
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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 08:55:24 AM »

ecka

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2013, 11:27:23 AM »
well MTF diagrams  gives you good information about the lens you are picking, so does this curves about problems with 3 layers of filter, there are other constructions  , read earlier answer
IF there had  been only minor problem with a Foveon or similar construction you can be sure there had been  sensors  out on the market since  years back
And Foveon is not the first with a construction like this.They are the first to do a commercial product

Got any diagrams on how those problems are/should be solved?
I think that scientific method is the best, except when people start using it religiously, like "... this is the only way, now and forever, amen" or "... my book says X, so your book is wrong, because my religion is the right one".
Perhaps one of the reasons why Foveon is not very popular, is that it requires more in-camera processing power, which results in slow shooting speed and short battery life.
FF + primes !

CarlTN

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 12:47:07 PM »
In my practical usage, I will state again, that despite what the above tests might or might not show, the color saturation and variation I achieved with the older DP2, was quite usable, and did deliver a wide color palette.  And when boosting color and vibrance sliders in post, there was no apparent color noise, and the variety of color did not diminish...at least with shots done at ISO 100 or ISO 50.  This is not true of all the bayer-sensored cameras whose RAW files I have edited, including the 5D3 and my 6D.  Of course overall, the file is better from those two than from the DP2 (not even discussing the file's resolution dimensions here).  Their sensors are huge by comparison, and their implementation is far more developed and evolved. 

But it's really just something you have to be open minded and experience for yourself.  You can't judge Sigma's sensor alone, based on tests and charts.  I suspect the Merrill sensor is significantly better, as well.

Basically what I am saying, is that when editing RAW files, the primary colors, become blown out very quickly, when you apply boosted saturation in post editing of the files in Lightroom or ACR...with bayer sensors...where they do not with the foveon sensor I used (again at low ISO...at higher ISO, yes it was not usable for color...but no one has said it is).

You can attempt to discredit what I just said, or say it's not a valid point.  I don't care.  It's still the reality of using the foveon sensor.  Sure, you could argue that such boosted color saturation is not a realistic interpretation of the reality the camera was capturing...but I could argue that a big part of what it captured IS REALITY, it is just representing it in a way that flies in the face of the philosophies you adhere to, and thus you close your mind to other interpretations that exist in reality, whether you like it or not.

Again, thus far, the only digital camera sensor that has achieved an interpretation of "true color" in the lateral plane, is the foveon.  Film did it in the lateral plane, and essentially in the longitudinal plane (since the emulsion layer was very thin).  Bayer sensors certainly rely on math to determine color...to argue the opposite is to lie and ignore the obvious.  So an argument based on the supposed "flawed math" needed to produce an image with a foveon sensor, is a flawed argument itself.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 12:49:40 PM by CarlTN »

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Re: Patent: Canon Foveon Sensor
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 12:47:07 PM »