September 21, 2014, 08:11:47 PM

Author Topic: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX  (Read 4188 times)

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3716
    • View Profile
ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« on: May 25, 2013, 01:03:04 AM »
Basically when you use the Photoshop/ACR workflow to process the RAW DNG folder you have to set working space for ACR to sRGB 16bits which is all fine BUT most people calibrate monitors and TVs to something like gamma 2.2 but you were editing in sRGB and as soon as you take the footage out of something not completely color-managed which includes almost all video playback software you end up with the sRGB video file's sRGB tone response curve not getting converted for use on a gamma 2.2 display and you get the contrast and saturation a trace boosted and the shadows and lower mid-tones become too dark.

The fix is to add a step right before you save out as TIFF in your batch action. Use "Edit->Convert To Profile->Custom RGB" and then rename it to "REC709 Primaries With Gamma 2.2" (or whatever) and hit OK (it should already have selected REC709 primaries and gamma 2.2 for you automatically, if not, make sure it has gamma 2.2 set and REC 709/sRGB primaries set). This will store each TIFF in Gamma 2.2 with sRGB/REC709 primaries instead of in sRGB TRC with sRGB/REC709 primaries so your videos should look the same when played back on your sRGB/REC709 primaries and gamma 2.2 calibrated display as they did when you edited the initial frame in ACR/Photoshop.

But that is not all. That simply makes the TIFFs get stored as gamma 2.2 but AE will still convert them back into sRGB TRC instead of leaving them at gamma 2.2 unless you make sure to set "Preserve RGB" as one of the options for the output codec in the render queue and I believe that you also need to change AE preferences to chose "None" for working space to turn off its color management engine.

That does the trick (it's actually simple all you do is turn off the AE color management once and save those prefs and then just add the convert to profile with gamma 2.2 thing to your RAW batch action in Photoshop once and you are good to go with nothing more needed to be done each time.

Then when you import into Premiere Pro it looks the same way as it did in Photoshop/ACR (assuming your monitor is internally calibrated to sRGB/REC709 gamut and gamma 2.2 D65m if not there may be slight variations due to primaries in different locations and such although if you at least calibrated it through software the gamma/WB ramp should still work in your video card and that should still match up more or less).
It really makes a considerably noticeable difference. Your video won't end up overly saturated/contrasty/dark in dark to midtones compared to what you thought you had prepared in Photoshop/ACR. If you were fine-tuning in Premiere Pro anyway I suppose it doesn't matter but it saves you from having to re-tune to make up for sRGB vs gamma 2.2 differences which is hard to exactly do by hand and it means less need to push bits around once you are possibly no longer in full bit format.

canon rumors FORUM

ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« on: May 25, 2013, 01:03:04 AM »

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3716
    • View Profile
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2013, 01:08:47 AM »
First, of course ACR should be set to sRGB working space and 16bits when using it to do ML RAW video (for stills ProPhotoRGB 16bit makes most sense).


dirtcastle

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 391
    • View Profile
    • Eric Nord Flickr Page
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2013, 04:53:42 AM »
This is good to know. Thanks!

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3716
    • View Profile
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2013, 02:40:14 PM »
For an AE only workflow it should be possible to do it if you can find and .icc profile that has sRGB/REC709 primaries mixed with gamma 2.2 instead of sRGB TRC. I didn't find one with a quick web search, but I'm sure one has to be out there. I think I will just make my own such. Then you could just use that in AE and it should be good (at worst if you used that for the output conversion profile that should force it to work out).

Axilrod

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 12:40:39 PM »
Are you talking mac or pc?
5DIII/5DII/Bunch of L's and ZE's, currently rearranging.

JasonATL

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
    • View Profile
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 06:32:50 PM »
For an AE only workflow it should be possible to do it if you can find and .icc profile that has sRGB/REC709 primaries mixed with gamma 2.2 instead of sRGB TRC. I didn't find one with a quick web search, but I'm sure one has to be out there. I think I will just make my own such. Then you could just use that in AE and it should be good (at worst if you used that for the output conversion profile that should force it to work out).

Thank you for sharing the tip.

In AE, I set the project to HDTV (Rec. 709) in Color Management within Project Properties. When I rendered this to a Quicktime DNxHD file, the result was indistinguishable from what I had with no color management selected. Am I missing something, or does the color space conversion occur automatically in AE or upon rendering?

MattBicePhotography

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 12:48:58 AM »
I am not sure how I edit the profile of a batch. When I edit these in photoshop, I open them all at once, then I edit them in ACR, but never open them into photoshop. I just save them out of ACR. I don't see anyway to convert the profile. It would take about an hour to open up a 4 minute clip (music video) into PS, but if I keep it in ACR, I only have to wait for all the files to save.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 12:48:58 AM »

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3716
    • View Profile
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 02:28:45 AM »
Are you talking mac or pc?

PC but I doubt that it makes any difference. If you use different programs then it's a whole new game of course, but I don't see why PC vs MAC should make any difference (maybe most MAC video players are color managed?? even so they'd look a bit off on the avg HDTV or PC though)

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3716
    • View Profile
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 02:34:58 AM »
For an AE only workflow it should be possible to do it if you can find and .icc profile that has sRGB/REC709 primaries mixed with gamma 2.2 instead of sRGB TRC. I didn't find one with a quick web search, but I'm sure one has to be out there. I think I will just make my own such. Then you could just use that in AE and it should be good (at worst if you used that for the output conversion profile that should force it to work out).

Thank you for sharing the tip.

In AE, I set the project to HDTV (Rec. 709) in Color Management within Project Properties. When I rendered this to a Quicktime DNxHD file, the result was indistinguishable from what I had with no color management selected. Am I missing something, or does the color space conversion occur automatically in AE or upon rendering?

Did you use AE only?
ACR in AE probably was maybe using sRGB.icc and the file was already using sRGB TRC at that point so using no management vs REC709 maybe didn't matter at that point. So I'd expect the same outputfile in that scenario.

But what programs did you use to play the DNxHD file back with that made them look exactly the same as they had in AE when REC709 working space was set? Was it MPC with full color management plug-ins?




LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3716
    • View Profile
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 02:39:05 AM »
I am not sure how I edit the profile of a batch. When I edit these in photoshop, I open them all at once, then I edit them in ACR, but never open them into photoshop. I just save them out of ACR. I don't see anyway to convert the profile. It would take about an hour to open up a 4 minute clip (music video) into PS, but if I keep it in ACR, I only have to wait for all the files to save.

I was opening the first file in ACR and setting the various sliders then continuing on with the file into PS to see if I wanted to apply anything there and a I tweak a line or two in my RAW action. Then I go to automate and apply the action to the whole batch. It's tricky to make it apply the same ACR settings to all the DNGs I forget what needs to be set so I usually first just drag the first DNG to Adove Brige, select copy development attribute and then select all the other DNGs and apply past development attributes.

My RAW action is something like:
open file
optionally apply this or that PS stuff
do the convert to gamma 2.2 profile step
save file
close file

dirtcastle

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 391
    • View Profile
    • Eric Nord Flickr Page
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 04:25:47 AM »
While I've had some success with the ACR/LR workflow, I'm looking into a more NLE-centric workflow.

I have also been having color conversion issues from format to format. But I feel like spending a lot of time debugging it for the ACR/LR workflow is a bit of a waste because I think we are on the cusp of more efficient workflows that bypass ACR/LR. It was a great workaround when there were few alternatives (at least for GUI-dependent users), but it's an inefficient workflow, especially when plagued by unexpected color shifts that require going back-and-forth (or just needing to go back and forth because you changed your mind on white balance or highlight recovery).

The following article talks about two new workflows, one of which is stable. The other is still rough.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/10531/cineform-raw-and-cinema-dng-converters-now-available-for-5d-mark-iii-raw

A lot of the ML tools development is on the Windows. I just ordered Parallels. I want to completely separate the conversion process from the editing process. And if that requires using Windows and/or the command line... it will still be a big time saver over the ACR/LR workflow (at least for me it will be). I guess other people are okay with it. To each his own.

Exciting times!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 04:36:02 AM by dirtcastle »

eyeland

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 143
  • Daybreak broke me loose and brought me back...
    • View Profile
    • Creative Consulting & Multimedia artistry ;)
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 06:09:19 AM »
Thanks for sharing your experiences!
When you say that you want to separate conversion and editing, by editing, are you also referring to color management?
5DIII+ML // 24-105L - 70-200 2.8L/2.8 IS II - 35/2 IS //\  AF/non-AF film bodies and lenses. (and half a darkroom in boxes:))

dirtcastle

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 391
    • View Profile
    • Eric Nord Flickr Page
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2013, 03:48:10 PM »
When you say that you want to separate conversion and editing, by editing, are you also referring to color management?

Yes. The optimal workflow for most is to do all non-conversion adjustments in an NLE, such as Premiere, After Effects, Final Cut, along with other programs that maintain a "non-destructive" workflow (e.g., Resolve).

Currently, the ACR/LR workflow outputs a Prores 422 file, into which many people are "baking" the white balance and other adjustments. The reason for making the adjustments prior to converting to Prores 422 is that you get to work on the uncompressed file and get a lot better results (especially with tonal adjustments). But the baking-in of these adjustments violates the non-destructive editing flow. In a non-destructive workflow, adjustments can be made at any point in the process, without the penalty of having to re-bake adjustments (in this case, in ACR or LR).

So the new workflows (similar to basically all other video workflows), will convert the RAW file to a format (e.g., Cinema DNG and CineForm) that maintains the ability to make adjustments at any point in the process, and doesn't require going back and forth between programs to adjust simple stuff like white balance and highlight recovery.

That said, ACR/LR do have some amazing features and I'm sure there will be people who will still use an ACR/LR flow (e.g., for extreme highlight recovery, or specific plugins such as SilverEfex). But personally, I want to take the footage straight into the NLE and/or Resolve, without having to worry about whether I "converted" the files properly.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 03:59:59 PM by dirtcastle »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2013, 03:48:10 PM »

eyeland

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 143
  • Daybreak broke me loose and brought me back...
    • View Profile
    • Creative Consulting & Multimedia artistry ;)
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 05:14:10 AM »
When you say that you want to separate conversion and editing, by editing, are you also referring to color management?

Yes. The optimal workflow for most is to do all non-conversion adjustments in an NLE, such as Premiere, After Effects, Final Cut, along with other programs that maintain a "non-destructive" workflow (e.g., Resolve).

Currently, the ACR/LR workflow outputs a Prores 422 file, into which many people are "baking" the white balance and other adjustments. The reason for making the adjustments prior to converting to Prores 422 is that you get to work on the uncompressed file and get a lot better results (especially with tonal adjustments). But the baking-in of these adjustments violates the non-destructive editing flow. In a non-destructive workflow, adjustments can be made at any point in the process, without the penalty of having to re-bake adjustments (in this case, in ACR or LR).

So the new workflows (similar to basically all other video workflows), will convert the RAW file to a format (e.g., Cinema DNG and CineForm) that maintains the ability to make adjustments at any point in the process, and doesn't require going back and forth between programs to adjust simple stuff like white balance and highlight recovery.

That said, ACR/LR do have some amazing features and I'm sure there will be people who will still use an ACR/LR flow (e.g., for extreme highlight recovery, or specific plugins such as SilverEfex). But personally, I want to take the footage straight into the NLE and/or Resolve, without having to worry about whether I "converted" the files properly.
I understand, and I share many of your thoughts.
I do however really like the results I get from ACR, and I never really got comfortable with color management in NLE.
It seem to me that the best way to go would be a workflow involving proxies and re-linking although that also has its clear dis-advantages.
Too bad ADL isn't useful here (and that I don't have endless storage space) :)
5DIII+ML // 24-105L - 70-200 2.8L/2.8 IS II - 35/2 IS //\  AF/non-AF film bodies and lenses. (and half a darkroom in boxes:))

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3716
    • View Profile
Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 12:42:56 AM »
When you say that you want to separate conversion and editing, by editing, are you also referring to color management?

Yes. The optimal workflow for most is to do all non-conversion adjustments in an NLE, such as Premiere, After Effects, Final Cut, along with other programs that maintain a "non-destructive" workflow (e.g., Resolve).

Currently, the ACR/LR workflow outputs a Prores 422 file, into which many people are "baking" the white balance and other adjustments. The reason for making the adjustments prior to converting to Prores 422 is that you get to work on the uncompressed file and get a lot better results (especially with tonal adjustments). But the baking-in of these adjustments violates the non-destructive editing flow. In a non-destructive workflow, adjustments can be made at any point in the process, without the penalty of having to re-bake adjustments (in this case, in ACR or LR).

So the new workflows (similar to basically all other video workflows), will convert the RAW file to a format (e.g., Cinema DNG and CineForm) that maintains the ability to make adjustments at any point in the process, and doesn't require going back and forth between programs to adjust simple stuff like white balance and highlight recovery.

That said, ACR/LR do have some amazing features and I'm sure there will be people who will still use an ACR/LR flow (e.g., for extreme highlight recovery, or specific plugins such as SilverEfex). But personally, I want to take the footage straight into the NLE and/or Resolve, without having to worry about whether I "converted" the files properly.

You can use Cineform with that workflow. I've been using Cineform almost all along. When you make the movie from the PS/ACR or LR/ACR TIFFs in AE just output to Cineform444FilmScan2 or something like that.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: ML RAW Video Tone Curve Photoshop/ACR Workflow FIX
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 12:42:56 AM »