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Author Topic: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?  (Read 4257 times)

omar

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DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« on: June 09, 2013, 10:07:52 PM »
I look at TV and film with a different eye now
I don't see anything that I don't think I would have trouble reproducing with my Canon 60D

What deficiencies does a DSLR have?
What does a £10,000 professional camera give that a DSLR doesn't give?

- recording time - limited to 12 minutes
Why is this? Is this because of the capacity of the SD card?
Is it possible to shoot straight to a hard drive?
(I found this wasn't possible - I had to shoot video and then transfer to my hard drive - this was a massive pain)

- swiping effect
Not sure if this is the right name - I'm sure you guys know what I mean - where the image goes jelly
Surely it can't take a genius to fix this?

- focusing??
I bought my 60D instead of the Nikon 5100 (which was much cheaper) after reading that one should ignore the automatic focusing on video of a camera - the professionals have to do it manually come what may
But... the follow focus mechanisms I've seen is a must have

What else?
What would a Black Magic camera for example give over the 60D or 5D MKIII?

What can't I do with my 60D?

Intrigued to know


Omar

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DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« on: June 09, 2013, 10:07:52 PM »

paul13walnut5

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2013, 10:36:46 PM »
Recording cap:

Limitation ofcard formatting.  Max file size is 4gb.  This equates to 12minsof 1080.

Other differences:

Form factor.  Ergonomics designed for stills.

Lenses: short zoom ranges.

Audio: no professional xlr inputs or headphone monitoring.

Codec: lossy & difficult to edit h.264, lacks colour sampling depth compared to 4:2:2 & 4:4:4 etc.

Weak AA filter designed for 18mp, not really effective on 2mp resolution.

Limited to 1080 recording.  A 19k camera will have 4k.

Decent video monitor with zebra, peaking.

Lack of sdi connections, lack of timecode controls.

Smaller photosites.  Lower base iso.  Lack of built in nd filters.

60d is great cam and can produce great video.  A deducated video camerajust does mostthings better.


Nishi Drew

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2013, 11:14:51 PM »
The above summarizes it pretty well, but also:

Heavy moire and aliasing with patterns and sharp detail (especially with 60D)

No built in ND filters (can get away with screw on filters, but pain for broadcast and fast changing light)

Recording time is also limited because the sensor/chip overheats and a lot more than dedicated video camera.

The 60D doesn't allow for external recording (at least not clean HDMI out)

The Black Magic is special because of it's outputs, quality sensor and high dynamic range for the price.
It can shoot video in very usable compressions/codecs for better editing and can even shoot RAW.
The higher dynamic range means it's closer to a cinematic look, and allows for greater flexibility in exposing and editing.

The "Jello Effect" is called Rolling Shutter and is a common problem with cameras using CMOS sensors.
As when the image is read from top to bottom of the sensor, fast action will not be recorded all at once uniformly across the sensor so movement of the camera and subjects are all affected.
No it doesn't take a genius to fix this, just some cameras handle this better, but there's no way to get rid of it.
Software can help with fixing but generally doesn't look good.

The Black Magic Production camera that's supposed to come out in July has a global shutter, which rids the rolling shutter effect completely.

Focusing is done manually for greater control, as AF in video will often not focus to where you want it to.
And for greater creative use it's better to follow focus when there's shallow depth of field.

An advantage that the 60D and other DSLR styled cameras have though is the size and weight.
The flip screen especially helps with shooting from odd angles, and it can be mounted on various rigs.
I use a GH3 which has a similar form factor, and it's miles ahead in every aspect for video, all the 60D has
is a larger sensor, but it's not that much bigger anyways. Also, the GH3 has no mirror, so virtually any lens can be
adapted to it, which can be useful.

And in other news, the Magic Lantern team that unlocked RAW video in certain cameras, especially the 5D Mark III is exciting many people, and if image quality is all that matters, then that camera with the eventual release of the firmware hack (and a boat load of expensive 1000X cards) is what to get for just about the best in video quality.


Videoshooter

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 08:03:57 AM »
The 60D (and all the Canon DSLR's) lack a lot of the exposure & focusing aids that professional cameras have - things like focus peaking, zebra's and focus magnification while recording.

They also lack any real audio inputs, controls or monitoring options. A professional camcorder will give you 2 xlr inputs with line/mic levels, phantom power (to supply power to microphones) audio meters on-screen and dual volume knobs.

The list could go on with missing features such as full time histograms/waveforms, headphones, time-code, (though these two were added to the higher end Canon DSLR's) smooth exposure adjustment, silent buttons, power zoom lenses, genlock, HD-SDI output (or locking pins on any outputs), DC-in, dual-slot recording, unlimited record times, etc, etc.

The truth is though, the image from these cameras is so good compared to camcorders in a similar price range, that many videographers are willing to put up with the missing conveniences. Focus on what your camera can do, rather than what it can't, and you'll find it is a very capable video recorder.
5dmkII, 60D, 70-200mm f/2.8, 50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.8, Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8, Sigma 150-500mm.

RGF

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 09:02:50 AM »
The 60D (and all the Canon DSLR's) lack a lot of the exposure & focusing aids that professional cameras have - things like focus peaking, zebra's and focus magnification while recording.

They also lack any real audio inputs, controls or monitoring options. A professional camcorder will give you 2 xlr inputs with line/mic levels, phantom power (to supply power to microphones) audio meters on-screen and dual volume knobs.

The list could go on with missing features such as full time histograms/waveforms, headphones, time-code, (though these two were added to the higher end Canon DSLR's) smooth exposure adjustment, silent buttons, power zoom lenses, genlock, HD-SDI output (or locking pins on any outputs), DC-in, dual-slot recording, unlimited record times, etc, etc.

The truth is though, the image from these cameras is so good compared to camcorders in a similar price range, that many videographers are willing to put up with the missing conveniences. Focus on what your camera can do, rather than what it can't, and you'll find it is a very capable video recorder.

Just curious - what is focus peaking?

quartzie

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2013, 09:38:39 AM »
Just curious - what is focus peaking?

Try google, your friend (mostly)....

Focus peaking is a focusing aid designed for manually focusing video/live view - it highlights sharp edges in a picture using a contrasty color/pattern to emphasize the areas which are in focus.

When used with video, it allows you to smoothly change focus to a particular object without going back-and-forth as an autofocus would.


LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2013, 03:36:05 PM »
The 60D (and all the Canon DSLR's) lack a lot of the exposure & focusing aids that professional cameras have - things like focus peaking, zebra's and focus magnification while recording.

They also lack any real audio inputs, controls or monitoring options. A professional camcorder will give you 2 xlr inputs with line/mic levels, phantom power (to supply power to microphones) audio meters on-screen and dual volume knobs.

Magic Lantern gives you much of that and adding a JuicedLink (for the XLR inputs, phantom power, etc.) gives you the rest pretty much.

Quote
The list could go on with missing features such as full time histograms/waveforms, headphones, time-code, (though these two were added to the higher end Canon DSLR's) smooth exposure adjustment, silent buttons, power zoom lenses, genlock, HD-SDI output (or locking pins on any outputs), DC-in, dual-slot recording, unlimited record times, etc, etc.

How often is a take more than 30 minutes?
You can record internally and over HDMI on 5D3.
ML gives smooth exposure adjustment and real RAW histogram and waveform.

5D3 with ML gives RAW video

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2013, 03:36:05 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 03:44:50 PM »
Recording cap:

Limitation ofcard formatting.  Max file size is 4gb.  This equates to 12minsof 1080.

No, ML has already gotten past that. Just format the CF card to exFAT on your computer and record to whatever file size you wish.



Quote

Audio: no professional xlr inputs or headphone monitoring.

5D3 has built-in headphone monitoring and all you need to do is attach a small little new JUicedLink and you get your XLR inputs.

Quote
Codec: lossy & difficult to edit h.264, lacks colour sampling depth compared to 4:2:2 & 4:4:4 etc.

h.264 edits fine if you have any decent modern nvidia card and enable the engine in premiere pro

the codec doesn't do much damage (compared Ninja2 over clean HDMI out) to all-i internal

using ninja 2 you get 4:2:2 and internally you use ML RAW for really amazing color and tonality

Quote
Weak AA filter designed for 18mp, not really effective on 2mp resolution.

Well it's pretty effective on the 5D3 since they mush it anyway. Aliasing and moire can show a bit using ML RAW so it's not like an Alexa, but it actually seems no worse and sometimes even better than Black Magic.

Quote
Limited to 1080 recording.  A 19k camera will have 4k.

true

Quote
Decent video monitor with zebra, peaking.

ML gives zebra and peaking and magic zoom box.
A ninja gives that on a small external monitor, granted not built-in.


Lack of sdi connections, lack of timecode controls.

Quote
Smaller photosites.  Lower base iso.  Lack of built in nd filters.

Yeah smaller photosites but larger sensor and that is what matters for the cameras that use the full sensor and the 5D3 cleans up against even many big boy video cameras when it comes to SNR.

No built-in ND is true.

Quote
60d is great cam and can produce great video.  A deducated video camerajust does mostthings better.

But a 5D3 with a hack (and perhaps a couple small add-ons) does many things as well or better than many, if certainly not all, video cameras.

One of the biggest differences is that the serious video camera are free of jello and none of the DSLR are.


paul13walnut5

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 09:49:05 PM »
OP asked about the 60d.

I'm running eng, hdv and dslr format cams, trying to make a business case for a so called 'cinema' cam.

I don't run ML (so far haven't hit a must have situation) so can't comment.

The biggest single thing for me is product design, or at least ergonomics and operation.

DSLRs, no matter how they are rigged up, are absolutely horrible to use for video.

That doesn't stop me shooting a lot of video on them, but your man asked about differences (and specifically regarding a 60d): handling a camera that is designed for video is 1000x better in terms of user experience than using a hotspotch of gadgets gizmos caveats and compromises.

A video camera lets you shoot video the way you want.  With DSLRs you are a bit more at their mercy.  No whip movements, no crash lens movements, no servo or even live zooming, Clumsy WB controls on wrong side of camera for video tripod etc

A 5d3 dressed up, hacked or whatever, will suffer the exact same compromises as every other dslr.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 09:20:10 AM by paul13walnut5 »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 02:43:29 PM »
OP asked about the 60d.

I'm running eng, hdv and dslr format cams, trying to make a business case for a so called 'cinema' cam.

I don't run ML (so far haven't hit a must have situation) so can't comment.

The biggest single thing for me is product design, or at least ergonomics and operation.

DSLRs, no matter how they are rigged up, are absolutely horrible to use for video.

That doesn't stop me shooting a lot of video on them, but your man asked about differences (and specifically regarding a 60d): handling a camera that is designed for video is 1000x better in terms of user experience than using a hotspotch of gadgets gizmos caveats and compromises.

A video camera lets you shoot video the way you want.  With DSLRs you are a bit more at their mercy.  No whip movements, no crash lens movements, no servo or even live zooming, Clumsy WB controls on wrong side of camera for video tripod etc

A 5d3 dressed up, hacked or whatever, will suffer the exact same compromises as every other dslr.

Well he did ask what would a video cam do compared to a 60D or 5D3 at the end.

Yeah the form factor isn't the best, although with an eyepiece hood is become a good deal better, still not as good though (and with a Juiced Link screwed in the bottom and attached on the flash it becomes a touch more awkward). Of course you also get stills in the same small package and if you do both a real lot then a DSLR form factor is maybe better than lugging two bodies around, one stills and one video cam around your neck, it depends. And yeah a quick flip to drop in various NDs is nicer than screwing various filters on and off etc.



paul13walnut5

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 08:27:17 PM »
Is there a stills button on the c series cameras? (excl the 1DC obviously)

Just wondering, because for folk who need a bit of both but are serious about video, 8MP stills with a properly designed video camera is probably more useful than 22MP stills from a bodge?

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 10:29:43 PM »
Is there a stills button on the c series cameras? (excl the 1DC obviously)

Just wondering, because for folk who need a bit of both but are serious about video, 8MP stills with a properly designed video camera is probably more useful than 22MP stills from a bodge?

I don't know if it does or not. If you are mostly video and just a touch stills maybe that would be better. If you are a lot stills or even a decent amount no way it cuts it. Shooting sports, wildlife, highly detailed landscapes would either be a nightmare of bad for the first two and not so hot for the last, with a C300 or whatnot.

paul13walnut5

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 03:22:39 AM »
Which brings me back ro my whole point re: differences, and specifically form.  And precisely why a £10k video camera might be better for video than a £600 dslr.

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Re: DSLR video vs professional - what is DSLR missing?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 03:22:39 AM »