October 21, 2014, 03:46:00 AM

Author Topic: A Big Megapixel Discussion  (Read 39326 times)

Stu_bert

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2013, 12:18:35 PM »
The new MP camera will compete with the new D4x and will use the same sensor tech as the 7D mk ii but tweaked for the pro end. I'd love Canon to address low iso along with dr etc if they're aiming for landscape photographers

And I think they'll consider a body in between the 1d and 5d - the infamous 3D - to appeal to prosumers as this can be legitimately released without alienating 5d III owners...

Just my 2p :)
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2013, 12:18:35 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #91 on: June 13, 2013, 08:52:56 PM »
Why would canon release a big mpix sensor when they are market leaders? Their sales are good and they have the technology for a while. R&D costs a lot, so proper product releases are key to success...

I've wondered the same thing. Obviously Canon knew exactly what the market was for the 5DIII (Wedding and event photographers) and knew they could charge an initial premium because the high ISO performance offered ipeople a tool they could use to gain a competitive edge.

I've never figured out what market Nikon was aiming for with the D800. They had an embedded base of users who were already invested in Nikon equipment, but the market for the D800 was ill-defined at best.



?? Landscape shooters (great DR and MP)? Nature with more reach for wildlife (and it gets you 5fps and 6fps in cropped modes which are perfect and don't waste pixels for distance limited wildlife)?

What exactly was the 5D2 base then compared to the 5D if the D800 wasn't defined??

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #92 on: June 13, 2013, 09:31:50 PM »

And someone was speculating about 102k native ISO. Would be great! Waiting for that. Maybe in about 6 years from now via the 5DV? 102 k like my 25k on the 5D3...wow.   8)

That was me; high ISO was why I bought the 5D3 (the 1DX was out of scope both due to money and physical size), and I really look forward to the next improvement in the ISO department.  Rather like the jump from pushed Tri-X at 1600 to 2475 Recording Film pushed to 6400 and IR film with a filtered flash; there is no going back.

Having always been an 'available light' photographer, complete with the limitations that implied in the past, I am loving the stuff I get from the 5D3.  But of course I want 'more', and I know it's coming.

After all, that's how these suppliers of photographic crack stay in business.

pedro

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2013, 02:30:31 AM »

And someone was speculating about 102k native ISO. Would be great! Waiting for that. Maybe in about 6 years from now via the 5DV? 102 k like my 25k on the 5D3...wow.   8)

That was me; high ISO was why I bought the 5D3 (the 1DX was out of scope both due to money and physical size), and I really look forward to the next improvement in the ISO department.  Rather like the jump from pushed Tri-X at 1600 to 2475 Recording Film pushed to 6400 and IR film with a filtered flash; there is no going back.

Having always been an 'available light' photographer, complete with the limitations that implied in the past, I am loving the stuff I get from the 5D3.  But of course I want 'more', and I know it's coming.

After all, that's how these suppliers of photographic crack stay in business.

+1. I am all for high ISOs. Used to push Tri-X film to 1600 as well back in the day. Same reasons for purchasing a 5D3 as yours led me to go for it. Maybe you've seen this posted before. Here's my late cat at 51k:


Shooting my Cat at ISO 51k by Peter Hauri, on Flickr
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2013, 09:30:02 PM »
I see so many saying that the 1dx is being replaced or that this will be the successor to the 5d3.  What kool-aid are you guys drinking?   Maybe in the rebel world we would see such a rapid move to push out a new product, but not with pro level gear, or near pro level (XXD line).  Canon hasn't put out a replacement for the 60D yet, which is a line that gets updated every 1-2 years.  So to think we'll see even a rumor for the 5d4 in 2013 is a dream idea - more likely we'll see the dev rumors in 2015, with a potential release in 2016.  (Id say the idx will follow a similar pattern...

You are nuts if you think it makes sense for them to wait another three years to catch up on sensors.

Quote
Big MP --- I am pretty positive that a big mp body will be aimed at a niche audience - studio, landscape, architecture - where the 5d3 is aimed at weddings and event shooters and the 1dx is for wedding, events and sports (5d3 can do sports too, but the slower frame rate). 

Landscape is niche? General landscape and scenics are some the major usages for DSLRs.

5D3 was aimed at all around, landscapes (although they got left behind for DR), weddings (again with the DR), sports where your job is not riding on having THE frame ALL the time, it's decent for wildlife (only the reach is a little low compared to current APS-C cams or a D800), etc.

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I think nikon jumped the gun a little bit with big mp's by trying to make such a camera to act as an all around work machine. 

If you are bit more biased towards wildlife or landscapes than run and gun PJ or weddings, maybe they didn't.

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Just a shot in the dark here, but my guess is that we'll see 2 big MP bodies in 2014, a 1d style and a 5d style (not sure what they will name them).  Both will probably get the 1dx AF system, digic 6, one will be in the 8k range and the other in the 3-4k range.  Neither will have fast frame rates, guessing 2-4 frames per second (1d style will probably get the 4 fps, 5d style would get 2 fps).  Emphasis would be on IQ not speed.   This would enable canon to funnel this tech into the next round (yes, this would be the 1dx2 and the 5d4).  it's a sensible plan - get the new sensor out into its niche market, then by 2016 we'll have digic 7 or 8, our PC's will be that much faster, memory card speeds will be faster and their capacity will be greater and their cost will go down, how about some usb 4 maybe?

Really so they will put out a TWO fps 34-40MP camera for $4000 in 2014 when Nikon has a D800 for $2500, 36MP and 4fps (5fps at APS-H and 6fps at APS-C and with grip) out in 2012? So a product that is two years later, almost a cycle later than the D800 will not go up 2fps to 6fps FF but will drop to 2fps??

Quote
(Imagine transfering over 2000 45 MP images via usb2, lol, you have lost productive workflow time before you can even begin the workflow at that rate!!!!)

You can get a half-speed USB 3.0 card for a PCI slot or a firewire PCI slot card if you don't want to upgrade motherboards yet.

One place is way ahead now, largely thanks to Magic Lantern, is video. Man the 5D3 video utterly blows to pieces anything you get out of Nikon.

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2013, 10:54:50 PM »
I see so many saying that the 1dx is being replaced or that this will be the successor to the 5d3.  What kool-aid are you guys drinking?   Maybe in the rebel world we would see such a rapid move to push out a new product, but not with pro level gear, or near pro level (XXD line).  Canon hasn't put out a replacement for the 60D yet, which is a line that gets updated every 1-2 years.  So to think we'll see even a rumor for the 5d4 in 2013 is a dream idea - more likely we'll see the dev rumors in 2015, with a potential release in 2016.  (Id say the idx will follow a similar pattern...

You are nuts if you think it makes sense for them to wait another three years to catch up on sensors.

never said that, if you look down I put forward that there will be 2 new big mp bodies in 2014 ---but to say these will be replacing the 1dx and 5d3?  Nope, that ain't happening

Quote
Big MP --- I am pretty positive that a big mp body will be aimed at a niche audience - studio, landscape, architecture - where the 5d3 is aimed at weddings and event shooters and the 1dx is for wedding, events and sports (5d3 can do sports too, but the slower frame rate). 

Landscape is niche? General landscape and scenics are some the major usages for DSLRs.  5D3 was aimed at all around, landscapes (although they got left behind for DR), weddings (again with the DR), sports where your job is not riding on having THE frame ALL the time, it's decent for wildlife (only the reach is a little low compared to current APS-C cams or a D800), etc.

Yes, landscape is a niche, same as weddings are a niche, as are portraits.  Landscape shooters are a big niche, but, the vast majority of those shooting landscapes are hobbyists and enthusiasts who get by with crop cameras or older FF bodies.

Quote
I think nikon jumped the gun a little bit with big mp's by trying to make such a camera to act as an all around work machine. 

If you are bit more biased towards wildlife or landscapes than run and gun PJ or weddings, maybe they didn't.

I am not biased, I shoot landscapes too, but as far as the tools I need for the working side of photography, high ISO performance is much more of a must than DR and MP's...Either way, the point was --- "jumping the gun" that most people have the infrastructure ready for about 20MP's (IE - computer, memory cards, hard drives, etc, etc.  Doubling the size, well, yeah, I don't think that those who have invested in the infrastructure for 20MP's are ready for 36...

Quote
Just a shot in the dark here, but my guess is that we'll see 2 big MP bodies in 2014, a 1d style and a 5d style (not sure what they will name them).  Both will probably get the 1dx AF system, digic 6, one will be in the 8k range and the other in the 3-4k range.  Neither will have fast frame rates, guessing 2-4 frames per second (1d style will probably get the 4 fps, 5d style would get 2 fps).  Emphasis would be on IQ not speed.   This would enable canon to funnel this tech into the next round (yes, this would be the 1dx2 and the 5d4).  it's a sensible plan - get the new sensor out into its niche market, then by 2016 we'll have digic 7 or 8, our PC's will be that much faster, memory card speeds will be faster and their capacity will be greater and their cost will go down, how about some usb 4 maybe?

Really so they will put out a TWO fps 34-40MP camera for $4000 in 2014 when Nikon has a D800 for $2500, 36MP and 4fps (5fps at APS-H and 6fps at APS-C and with grip) out in 2012? So a product that is two years later, almost a cycle later than the D800 will not go up 2fps to 6fps FF but will drop to 2fps??

If it the new big MP bodies are designed strictly for quality over quantity, then this may be what we have!  How many frames per second does one get on most MF rigs?  Not what you get on a 35mm.  My logic here is this -- nikon tried to boost the MP's and still create a jack of all trades camera, and they sort of succeeded.  But, as mentioned above, those who built their infrastructure around 20 MP's and shoot in large volume aren't as pleased as those who shoot in less volume.  Canon has the 5d3 and the 1dx out there for those who want to shoot in volume, that frees them up to design these new bodies without thinking it's got to be a jack of all trades camera.   i

Quote
(Imagine transfering over 2000 45 MP images via usb2, lol, you have lost productive workflow time before you can even begin the workflow at that rate!!!!)

You can get a half-speed USB 3.0 card for a PCI slot or a firewire PCI slot card if you don't want to upgrade motherboards yet.

One place is way ahead now, largely thanks to Magic Lantern, is video. Man the 5D3 video utterly blows to pieces anything you get out of Nikon.

See inside the qoute for replies...
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Zv

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2013, 11:16:30 PM »
It's not fun uploading 2000+ 21MP RAW images to your desktop or laptop then backing all that up. Can't imagine doing that with 36MP images. And then there's the processing time, I would need a lot more processing power to cope.
If I was a wedding or sports shooter I prob would stick with a 5D III / 1DX. That's not to say that some photogs need those extra megapixels. Maybe the reason Canon hasn't brought this out yet is that they're still figuring out where in the line-up to stick it? We already have 3 full frame lines. A fourth? I guess Canon 2,3 and 4D are up for grabs!
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2013, 11:16:30 PM »

garyknrd

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2013, 12:24:22 AM »
I think a good idea. By the time it is here. Computers able to crunch these huge files will be cheap. Storage will be cheaper. Just a win win for me.
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art_d

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #98 on: June 15, 2013, 01:15:17 AM »
I am really hoping they opt for the 5D series body. I think that would make more sense because the 1D series cameras are built for people who shoot high volume work. High megapixel shooters tend to do low more low volume work.

Plus, for all the 5DII users who didn't upgrade to a 5DIII because of a lack of megapixel or IQ improvements, a higher megapixel 5Dx would finally give them a reason to buy a new Canon camera.

:)

...not always. I shoot high volume at times - and I love my 1 series body. I despise the 5-series because of how small the body is - it hurts to shoot for hours on end with it!
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with? Your point and mine are the same as far as I can tell. The 1 series bodies are built for high volume work. High volume cameras tend to be speced with lower megapixels and higher framerates.

My point is that a high megapixel sensor is not really going to be benficial to high volume shooters in most cases (and some might even consider it a detriment because the larger file sizes slow down a high volume workflow.) So why put a high megapixel sensor into a 1 series body that is built for high volume work?

bdunbar79

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #99 on: June 15, 2013, 01:27:32 AM »
I am really hoping they opt for the 5D series body. I think that would make more sense because the 1D series cameras are built for people who shoot high volume work. High megapixel shooters tend to do low more low volume work.

Plus, for all the 5DII users who didn't upgrade to a 5DIII because of a lack of megapixel or IQ improvements, a higher megapixel 5Dx would finally give them a reason to buy a new Canon camera.

:)

...not always. I shoot high volume at times - and I love my 1 series body. I despise the 5-series because of how small the body is - it hurts to shoot for hours on end with it!
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with? Your point and mine are the same as far as I can tell. The 1 series bodies are built for high volume work. High volume cameras tend to be speced with lower megapixels and higher framerates.

My point is that a high megapixel sensor is not really going to be benficial to high volume shooters in most cases (and some might even consider it a detriment because the larger file sizes slow down a high volume workflow.) So why put a high megapixel sensor into a 1 series body that is built for high volume work?

You mean like the 1Ds Mark III?  High frame rate and low MP's?
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expatinasia

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #100 on: June 15, 2013, 02:07:24 AM »
It's not fun uploading 2000+ 21MP RAW images to your desktop or laptop then backing all that up. Can't imagine doing that with 36MP images. And then there's the processing time, I would need a lot more processing power to cope.

I do this frequently and have no problem with it. Doesn't take so long.

Having a camera that fulfils your needs is only part of the job, having the processing power to match is equally as important - some would say a prerequisite.

I would love 36MP Raw files if the camera can also do 12 fps like the 1D X, or even faster. Don't mind at all.
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #101 on: June 15, 2013, 02:19:26 AM »
It's not fun uploading 2000+ 21MP RAW images to your desktop or laptop then backing all that up. Can't imagine doing that with 36MP images. And then there's the processing time, I would need a lot more processing power to cope.

I do this frequently and have no problem with it. Doesn't take so long.

Having a camera that fulfils your needs is only part of the job, having the processing power to match is equally as important - some would say a prerequisite.

I would love 36MP Raw files if the camera can also do 12 fps like the 1D X, or even faster. Don't mind at all.

Well, that's fine and why I also said some people need the extra megapixels. Though high fps and 36MP just makes me shudder! That's a lot of data, too much for me to handle - ratatatat 128Gb used up in just a few minutes!
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2013, 02:39:08 AM »
Or will the 5DIV be 45 MP

That's one possibility, that the 5D Mk IV is going to be the big MP camera, and eventually a future 6D Mk II will gain a better AF and more FPS...

I'm not sure what you are basing that on. This could very well be the 1D Xs.

Speculation. It's fun. Sure, it could be called 1D Xs. But again, I don't think so, especially if it's going to be a non-integrated grip body, which is my preferred option. In the other case, why not? But unlikely. Remember Canon introduced the "X" to represent the merging (crossing) of the 1D and 1Ds lines, and now what? Splitting in two the 1 series again and keeping the X, though both FF?


I have always understood that what they meant with "merging of the 1D and 1Ds" meant the actual merging of 1D IV and 1Ds III cameras not the actual 1D and 1Ds "lines" meaning that they forever excluded the possibility of a high speed 1D and a big megapixel 1D. Watch the official announcements again after you read this post, they didn't say exactly what you thought.

Another take that i think could be possible is that they meant that the 1D and 1Ds lines merge in to a 1DX which does not exclude a 1DXs line.

Big companies sometimes say things that is useful for marketing but customers take them too seriously.

Just watch and see. It will be in a 1D body. It has been clear ever since they launched the 1DX.. most 1D users are happy with 18MP on a full frame BUT there is definitely a need for a 1D body that rivals medium format cameras.

It just makes sense. If Canon wants a shot at medium format cameras they WILL release it on a 1D because it would be stupid to give better image quality for half the price of the 1DX and the camera would be stripped down on functions as well..

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2013, 02:39:08 AM »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #103 on: June 15, 2013, 03:15:24 AM »
Or will the 5DIV be 45 MP

That's one possibility, that the 5D Mk IV is going to be the big MP camera, and eventually a future 6D Mk II will gain a better AF and more FPS...

I'm not sure what you are basing that on. This could very well be the 1D Xs.

Speculation. It's fun. Sure, it could be called 1D Xs. But again, I don't think so, especially if it's going to be a non-integrated grip body, which is my preferred option. In the other case, why not? But unlikely. Remember Canon introduced the "X" to represent the merging (crossing) of the 1D and 1Ds lines, and now what? Splitting in two the 1 series again and keeping the X, though both FF?


I have always understood that what they meant with "merging of the 1D and 1Ds" meant the actual merging of 1D IV and 1Ds III cameras not the actual 1D and 1Ds "lines" meaning that they forever excluded the possibility of a high speed 1D and a big megapixel 1D. Watch the official announcements again after you read this post, they didn't say exactly what you thought.

Another take that i think could be possible is that they meant that the 1D and 1Ds lines merge in to a 1DX which does not exclude a 1DXs line.

Big companies sometimes say things that is useful for marketing but customers take them too seriously.

Just watch and see. It will be in a 1D body. It has been clear ever since they launched the 1DX.. most 1D users are happy with 18MP on a full frame BUT there is definitely a need for a 1D body that rivals medium format cameras.

It just makes sense. If Canon wants a shot at medium format cameras they WILL release it on a 1D because it would be stupid to give better image quality for half the price of the 1DX and the camera would be stripped down on functions as well..

+100

That's pretty much exactly what i think that's going on which is why i keep saying that whatever these big mp bodies end up being, they aren't replacing the current line up, they are adding to it.  Think about it ---with all the sports shooters out there enjoying their 12 fps and reasonable file sizes (many of which shoot in jpeg for quick uploading), will they really rush to trade in their 1dx for a 45 MP body that can maybe do 5-6 frames per second if your lucky (oh, more if you shoot in mRAW or SRAW)?  No!  No! No! no!!!!

And it would be a mistake to do that.  the 1dx and the 5d3 have their place.  The big MP bodies will have their place too.  Many 1dx users will buy a big MP body, not to replace the 1dx, but to supplement it - to get that big planned tripod mounted shot of the stadium, or other fun stuff like that.  You aren't shooting a basketball game with a 45 MP body though.  Many 5d3 users will also buy a big MP body as well too.  As a wedding shooter that does portraits and some fine art, hell yeah will I buy a big MP body.  That body would rock the hell out of the formal portraits and the solos with the B&G.  But ---it would sit in the bag during the reception (maybe it would come out for the first dance, but even then it would just be to supplement what your getting from your 5d3).

Back to the point, I totally agree.  The 1dx and the 5d3 are the jack of all trades bodies, the big MP bodies will fill the nich of users that mostly shoot at low ISO's and not in huge volume!!!!   
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Stu_bert

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #104 on: June 15, 2013, 10:46:08 AM »
Canon wanted to upgrade its glass before releasing the higher MP bodies, and now they have filled out some of the line (never going to keep everyone happy) then they have a complete env. for photographers. Releasing the body before releasing the better lenses doesn't make sense and I would guess does not need the same investment as a new sensor line. Investing in lenses means you get a better return as it appeals to all sorts of shooters, so you've got a larger addressable market than the high mp body will have

Meanwhile develop the next sensor tech to support them for perhaps the next 7 to 10 years (given previous cycles), and also watch and see how the market responds to the d800 - this in itself takes a reasonable time before you can reasonably assess the impact. And while you wait that new sensor tech is still useful for the whole of your product line.

It will be a pro body as I said earlier, and a body in between this and the 5d. Finally it will be in the 7d ii but perhaps a higher pixel density. Interesting times...
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #104 on: June 15, 2013, 10:46:08 AM »