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Author Topic: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!  (Read 13229 times)

EYEONE

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2011, 05:29:56 PM »
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Yes, Canon has already done a pixel reduction in replacement cameras.
Well, I'm sorry... Didn't know that, I've jsut stumbled upon the anouncement...
Was the first time I saw something like that (actually I'm not interested in compact cameras) and thought that the manufacturuers are starting to learn from theair mistakes.

Imho it is just ridicoulous to raise the megapixel more and more. No professional photografer would be able to believe that he has bought camera X instead of camera Y since it has 2 MP more.

Anyway... won't happen afain, when new users here are bashed like that...


Sorry friend. Didn't mean to insult or anything. I was simply stating what I knew about it.

But I think perhaps some companies are starting to realize it. It looks like Sony may be going hog wild MP. Hard to say without seeing Canon or Nikon yet. Nikon has already sort of shrugged off the MP War, but may have to re-enter if the marketing dept. demands it.
Canon 5D Mark III w/BG-E11, Canon 7D w/BG-E7: EF 24-70mm f.2.8L, EF 70-200mm f2.8L IS II, EF 40mm f2.8 Pancake STM, Speedlite 430EXII + 430EXI, Canon EOS 3

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2011, 05:29:56 PM »

YoukY63

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2011, 07:54:13 PM »
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They are investing money to continue improving their technology in their labs, but they all missed the cheap easy way to do so, by just decreasing the pixels.
I didn't mean that they have to decrease the pixels (sorry for my bad english), but I say that more megapixel won't make a camera much better.
I'm waiting for the 5D MKIII (or maybe the 7D MKII) and the least I want to see is an advertisment like we had the last years... "Yeahhh buy the new 5D!!! Now even MORE Megapixel and even MORE frames  per second").

I don't say, that more sensor resulotion is bad. I want to see some REAL improvement. GPS, WLan, Touchscreen, more Video-functionality etc. Not just onother sensor upgrade.

The 5D II has almost 22MP. We've reached a very high level on sensor resulution - high enough. Who cares if the 5D III will have 22, 24 or maybe 30 MP?
And if a manufacturer "dares" to go down in the resolution I thought it was worth mentioning. Better resolution is does not necessarily mean better image quality.

And no, it is not a problem of engineering, it's a problem of marketing.
It looks like we all don't want the same thing.
Whjo cares about MP? Me! And many other people! More pixel with very good glasses means more details in the pictures. More resolution is more crop possibilities for sports or wildlife, it is also more details for landscape. Only good things. It looks like even studio cameramen look for more MP, since they are using medium format containing 40 to 80MP!
Then, your "real" improvement:
-GPS: I agree, could be fun. But still just a kind of gadget.
-WLAN: what for? I have a card reader way faster than any wireless transfer protocol. And I never shoot close to my computer.
-more video options: that is for videographers, I am still photographer using still camera. But why not, I guess it does not hurt still abilities of the camera.
-touch screen: tfor me that would be the worse thing ever. Why people need a touchscreen on 1.5~3kg cameras? How can it be ergonomically relevant? What for? I definitely never want one of them on a DSLR!

Is that real camera improvement for you? I agree with you that MP should not be the only point to improve, but these gadgets options are not going to make the camera better. What I expect Canon is working on is also a new AF (many people here cry for that), but also improve the metering of the camera, the ergonomics by giving more options in the menus (selectable limits of auto-isos even in M mode or when using flash and beyond 400isos!, wider range of AE compensation, etc) and also wider dynamic range, cleaner high isos, etc...
Actually, things that matter on image quality...   ;)
Canon 5D MkII + 24-105mm f/4L + 70-200mm f/4L IS + 35mm f/1.4L + 85mm f/1.2L + 135mm f/2L + Sigma 50mm f/1.4EX + Samyang 14mm f/2.8

Dave

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2011, 10:11:28 PM »
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More pixel with very good glasses means more details in the pictures.
But you can cheat physics. Okay, noise reduction was tremendously improved and yes, it's okay to have a bigger sensor. But the growing of the MP is en evolution not a revoluion like the manufracturers want us to believe.

If you have an 8MP cam (~4000*2000 Pixels) to double the resulution (8000*4000) you need to quadruple the sensor pixelrate.
So if a 5D Mk III has a sensor, with... lets say 30 MP in comparison to the former 22MP you don't have a 40% higher resolution in fact it is just 10% more.
And yeah that's "nice" ("could be fun" ;-) but nothing more. 10% more resolution is nothing for what I would buy an new camera for 2000 Bucks.

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GPS: I agree, could be fun. But still just a kind of gadget.
If you want to tag your photos, thats not just "nice" that save hours of work...

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And I never shoot close to my computer.
Well, I do!

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that is for videographers, I am still photographer
I do both!

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How can it be ergonomically relevant? What for? I definitely never want one of them on a DSLR!
You point your finger at a certain area and the camera focuses on that area. And that is  ergonomically highly relevant.
Maybe all "nice gadget". But imo that's the future. It's frustrating if every bloody iPhone has more features than a 2000-Euro- Cam and via Apps they are even expandable.

That would also be an intersting feature: A plugin interface. Or to release the firmware as open source...

Since Sony has become a big player in the DSLR market it's not so easy for canon. The time where canon is the unchallenged market leader is over. I'm really curious for the next canon DSLR announcement. They just CAN'T improve the megapixels in cam like the 5D or 7D after the A77

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2011, 03:29:13 PM »
If you have an 8MP cam (~4000*2000 Pixels) to double the resulution (8000*4000) you need to quadruple the sensor pixelrate.
So if a 5D Mk III has a sensor, with... lets say 30 MP in comparison to the former 22MP you don't have a 40% higher resolution in fact it is just 10% more.
And yeah that's "nice" ("could be fun" ;-) but nothing more. 10% more resolution is nothing for what I would buy an new camera for 2000 Bucks.
You don't need to double the resolution to gain a noticeable bump in cleaner ISOs, though, and the $2000 models also have some good features not found in the cheaper ones.  The 60D is, as far as I can see, the only Canon DSLR that can be had for less than $2000 reliably that also has a worthy AF sensor (putting aside the 50D for a moment that is, which arguably isn't worth buying at its price due to newer alternatives).

I also am in the camp of "who needs more resolution than 15mp?"  I don't shoot wall-sized prints and rarely need more than ISO 400 so I haven't gone out and bought a newer camera than a 2009 model.  I don't like using up my memory cards and hard drives with ever-larger files, or spend more time transferring files.  However, I also wouldn't want to lose resolution from where I'm at.  But all this ignores that each generation there have been pretty big gains in ISO cleanliness.  Dynamic range is probably a more critical improvement to be made but the sensor technology itself seems to be the limiting factor here.  Of course, perfectly usable results can be had by simply exposing for highlights and pulling information out of shadows if needed later.

jimmy156

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2011, 05:44:34 PM »
I read an article the other day from an old photography review which said

"We thought the megapixel race was over, we wrong with this new 8mp DSLR!"

What this tells me is that the megapixel "race" will never be over, and as technology improves we will always be getter more and more megapixels, for better or for worse.

macfly

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2011, 06:42:24 PM »
It can only be better, and also it be will what defines the need to have a camera. The next gen of iPhones and Androids will have 8-10MP cameras, and nice glass too, so camera makers are going to have to go far beyond the playing field of the tradional point and shoot. The phone will completely pull that rug from under them, and so far it looks like only Sony are addressing that with the NEX-7

Dave

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2011, 08:49:11 PM »
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What this tells me is that the megapixel "race" will never be over,
Well people said the same a couple of years ago concerning the "Megahertz-Race" at CPUs.
I think the same will hapen at the sensor resolution.

Maybe not so soon. But their are physical limits. And the final Limit will be the optical resolution of the lenses.

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2011, 08:49:11 PM »

PeterJ

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2011, 04:24:38 AM »
Dynamic range is probably a more critical improvement to be made but the sensor technology itself seems to be the limiting factor here.
I was pondering this recently and wonder if it's the sensor or limitations of ADC technology? It's pretty easy to get a 24-bit delta-sigma converter, but they normally take in the order of thousands of samples per second at best. For say 20MP at 8fps you'd need a 160MHz minimum sample rate. Looking at a few manufacturers while some have products that can do that sample rate at 16 bit resolution the ones I took a quick look at only had 20MHz odd analog bandwidth which I imagine would be "OK" but presumably would give some softness around sharp contrasty edges.

I work with embedded electronics but not imaging, so my comments are far from expert, but I thought I'd throw it out there that the current 14-bit sampling is probably pushing the limits of affordable and practical analog converter technology. To "fix" the problem the usual way would be to use an array of ADC converters, but they aren't real cheap at the high-end and draw quite a bit of current. I think it will change over time as they become cheaper and draw less power all the time. At the moment using an array of converters (or more if they already use that idea) probably wouldn't be off the cards for a 1 series camera from a cost / size point of view, but I imagine it might slash battery life by an amount a lot of people wouldn't care for.

Hillsilly

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2011, 05:58:34 AM »
Everyone knows that Canon reached the peak of technical perfection in 2004.  If you do a DXO Mark comparison between the 20D and the 60D, the results have barely moved.  But in the real world, is anyone going to argue that they prefer the lower resoltion of a 20D?

I see this discussed all of the time.  I know that many people get very irrate over higher megapixels, but I've never understood why.  I'm not very technically minded and I don't understand a lot of this discussion (what's a 24-bit delta sigma converter???), but if Mr Canon produced two cameras with the same dynamic range and noise, but one had 8mp and the other 18mp, who wouldn't take the 18mp?

If Canon wants to take the 5Diii to 30+mp, go for it!  I don't see any down sides. 
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Jedifarce

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2011, 02:13:21 AM »
I've just read that Panasonic has anounced a new Brudge Cam, the DMC-FZ150. With 12MP it has 2 Megapixel LESS(!!!!!) than it's predecessor (14MP).
I hope this will set a sign to Canon, Nikon & Co. I want more "real" features, not just more megapixels.

regards, Dave

I'm more concerned about the video files -> AVCHD. Yuck. Cleaning up an AVCHD footage in post always requires a lot of color grading just to make it look decent.

Dave

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2011, 02:22:00 AM »
Could anbody close this thread please? Don't want to get any more "smites"...

nesarajah

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2011, 06:09:13 AM »
I've just read that Panasonic has anounced a new Brudge Cam, the DMC-FZ150. With 12MP it has 2 Megapixel LESS(!!!!!) than it's predecessor (14MP).
I hope this will set a sign to Canon, Nikon & Co. I want more "real" features, not just more megapixels.
regards, Dave

i know this will raise the ire of many but I will be completely honest that I miss the image quality of 4/3rds. it has that certain look to it. even though the high ISO quality is rubbish, the 2x crop factor is perfect for compressing features and is quite flatering. I movee only because Olympus was the kind of company Apple is and is quite happy abandoning its user base.

That said : I want MORE megapixels . I want higher resolution. I shoot with the lowest ISO I can. i think most people shoot the same way but want the flexabilty of high ISO.

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Re: Panasonic, I love you!!!!!
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2011, 06:09:13 AM »