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Author Topic: REVISED W/ CONTRACT INFO Is this a fair offer for an on location job?  (Read 7127 times)

jdramirez

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2013, 07:42:01 AM »
I look at it like this:

Money for gas for the drive
Money for a meal
Your time at the event
Your time on post-production
The rights to your work

What the last three are worth are flexible I suppose, but an hour and a half each way at 4 bucks a gallon is no small thing.

Jim

I do agree that I would not drive 90 minutes... so that is an extra expense.  And I do realize people get paid for food when they are out on a job, but I'm pretty sure that I was planning on eating anyway that day... so I consider it a wash. 

My time at the event... if I was a professional and I could be doing something else that would be making money, sure... but otherwise I will be at the pool with the wife and kid wondering what time we are going to go home.  So I almost will give this up for free because it sounds more interesting and exciting than the alternative. 

I'm not sure about post... and it is a huge pain in the ass to work over 500+ photos in lightroom... But for publishing purposes, wouldn't someone want the raw image themselves and then adjust it to their liking.  I'm not sure, but considering this is supposed to be civil war reenactment, I would assume they would want to sepia everything.

As for the rights, I suppose I can negotiate the rights to those, keeping the copyright for myself, but giving them total unrestricted use of the images as long as they provide me a credit in the publication... and a copy of whatever is produced. 

They may be getting me on the cheap... I realize that, but this would officially vault me from amateur to semi-pro with a near guaranteed publishing credit.  Seems like I'm getting a good deal more out of this just for giving up a weekend.
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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2013, 07:42:01 AM »

jdramirez

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2013, 07:45:26 AM »
I would say that you have to start somewhere. Never mind about the industry, the industry doesn't care about you. If you think it's a good way to get experience, then go for it. At leat it's a paid job and you get one under your belt. Next one to hire you won't know how much/little you got paid. But try to get to keep the photos at least.

thanks
J

I agree... but I have mostly been shooting for praise... the last 5 years...  Praise can't buy me a double cheeseburger and McDonalds. 

"Um, I got this very nice thank you letter for taking photos... Will I be getting any change back?"

I don't want to become a full time photographer, but to become a freelance doing an occasional fun event with the ability to roam where I want and to do interesting things (I presume) simply because I have a camera in hand... That seems more like fun.
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jdramirez

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2013, 07:47:18 AM »
At my previous job, they paid stringers 125 for about 1-2 hour event shoot.

I would do it to advance my skills and try something diffrent. Maybe you can build a relationship and get more referrals in the future. Also you can expose your equipment and self to a new expririence. Have fun and do something than the normal.

Good luck!

The outfit is a small organization, doing mostly self-published books about fishing.  I think they are branching out... so I don't think more jobs will come directly from them, but having a letter of recommendation certainly might help get more little jobs.  So that would be a plus. 
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nebugeater

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2013, 08:01:16 AM »
On of the Mud Runs in the area was advesting on Craigslist for a gig like this a little over a month ago.  To the best that I remember there ad specified close to teh following.

Must have a DSLR and lens   Specifiy in the respose what you have
Must have multiple bateries   Specify in resonse
Must be willing to be at event 8 + hours
Will be located at one location for the day
Event will supply memory cards
Expect to take between 1000 - 2000 photos
Photos are owned by the event
Compensation = $200

Not of interest to me but I am guessing they got plenty of response.

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2013, 08:06:11 AM »
You could take the $100, chalk it up to experience. Only send them full size edited JPGs. Enjoy the shoot, rub some elbows, and have fun.

However, I would give them only the JPGs WITH a release authorization for publication/web/whatever you feel is acceptable. That way, they know you mean business. They'll get to use the images for the intended purpose, but since you've handed over the release for specific purpose, they don't take advantage of you.

Be sure to get it up front what is expected AND written on paper. You could even send an email as a follow up before shooting "just to be sure things are in order". A contract is only worth the paper it's written on. The email is better than nothing. I usually do an "agreement" (contract is a bad word) and follow up with an email 24-48 hours before the shoot. That way, there are no surprises.

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2013, 08:32:12 AM »
I would say that you have to start somewhere. Never mind about the industry, the industry doesn't care about you. If you think it's a good way to get experience, then go for it. At leat it's a paid job and you get one under your belt. Next one to hire you won't know how much/little you got paid. But try to get to keep the photos at least.

thanks
J

I agree... but I have mostly been shooting for praise... the last 5 years...  Praise can't buy me a double cheeseburger and McDonalds. 

"Um, I got this very nice thank you letter for taking photos... Will I be getting any change back?"

I don't want to become a full time photographer, but to become a freelance doing an occasional fun event with the ability to roam where I want and to do interesting things (I presume) simply because I have a camera in hand... That seems more like fun.

I think we agree on this. Ive 'given' away a few shoots to gain experience but think now that next time I will charge for it. The only money Ive made has been from print sales of some portraits and street photography. I'd also like to put myself  in the situation where I can take a paid gig every now and then. It might be naive but at least Im not financially dependant on it.

dstppy

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2013, 08:39:39 AM »
At my previous job, they paid stringers 125 for about 1-2 hour event shoot.

I would do it to advance my skills and try something diffrent. Maybe you can build a relationship and get more referrals in the future. Also you can expose your equipment and self to a new expririence. Have fun and do something than the normal.

Good luck!

The outfit is a small organization, doing mostly self-published books about fishing.  I think they are branching out... so I don't think more jobs will come directly from them, but having a letter of recommendation certainly might help get more little jobs.  So that would be a plus.

A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say.  A letter of recommendation is just a bunch of words, so, an amazing shot in your portfolio will speak volumes more to a potential client.

The only advice you were given in any of the posts here that I have an opinion on is copyright.  I've never dealt with (as a client) a photographer that was willing to release it cheaply.  Now, being on the other end of the lens, I have a very possessive attitude about my photographs.

If you think you'll get interesting/good shots, go for it, but even if you give them the right to publish/print, keep your rights . . . require credit when published, set parameters on how it can be sold.
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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2013, 08:39:39 AM »

paul13walnut5

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2013, 09:34:18 AM »
You aspire to be a semi-professional? 

What is a semi-professional?  It's a term devised by marketing folk to upsell from base models. 

If you want to be a professional then take out liability insurance (in case any of the actors fall over your gear) equipment insurance (in case your gear gets pranged) and indemnity insurance (in case your photos don't work out for any reason and the event promotors seek redress - if you enter a contract to take images for them and you for some reason don't then they will probably sue you) remember also to do your books, so you can pay your dues of income tax and corporate tax (hire an accountant to see what of your expenses you can claim against the $100)

I'm not saying this to be facetious, just that is what professional means, and your are either doing it as a professional (with the pressure and expectations and legal ramifications) or you are doing it because you'll enjoy it and learn from it and get your petrol money and lunch covered.

Regarding copyright, this would be covered in the contract.  You may decide a limited license, stating that copyright cannot be transferred to a third party other than by you, or define explicit terms of use. 

This is the problem with amateurs vs professionals...  amateurs get a bit possessive about money after the event, professionals have it all sorted before they turn a frame.

I do video professionally, for a large media company and some freelance.  If I'm getting paid for time and for the use of my equipment then I just see it that whoever paying me has the copyright. 

Would you otherwise be taking images of the event?  It sounds like yes.  Will this offer give you better access and potentially better pictures?  It sounds like yes.  If you refuse the offer will they hire in a professional?  It sounds like no.

Not much help I know, but some issues to think about.  And never use the term semi-professional.  It only exsists in camera shops.  If you do start making money from your hobby and turn it into something else (and this is a whole new debate, the fun starts to go, it's no longer yours) do you expect to only get semi-paid?

jdramirez

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2013, 09:46:43 AM »
 I appreciate the help.  I consider professionals as someone who earns the bulk of their income from being in their profession,  in  this case as a photographer.  I  consider a  semi-pro  as  someone who earns money  but if they stopped tomorrow,  they  don't have to sell their house or car.

 Regardless of whether you are a semi-pro or pro,  professionalism  should be a given.   showing up on time and prepared,  with quick turnarounds,  with a high quality product. 
 
You aspire to be a semi-professional? 

What is a semi-professional?  It's a term devised by marketing folk to upsell from base models. 

If you want to be a professional then take out liability insurance (in case any of the actors fall over your gear) equipment insurance (in case your gear gets pranged) and indemnity insurance (in case your photos don't work out for any reason and the event promotors seek redress - if you enter a contract to take images for them and you for some reason don't then they will probably sue you) remember also to do your books, so you can pay your dues of income tax and corporate tax (hire an accountant to see what of your expenses you can claim against the $100)

I'm not saying this to be facetious, just that is what professional means, and your are either doing it as a professional (with the pressure and expectations and legal ramifications) or you are doing it because you'll enjoy it and learn from it and get your petrol money and lunch covered.

Regarding copyright, this would be covered in the contract.  You may decide a limited license, stating that copyright cannot be transferred to a third party other than by you, or define explicit terms of use. 

This is the problem with amateurs vs professionals...  amateurs get a bit possessive about money after the event, professionals have it all sorted before they turn a frame.

I do video professionally, for a large media company and some freelance.  If I'm getting paid for time and for the use of my equipment then I just see it that whoever paying me has the copyright. 

Would you otherwise be taking images of the event?  It sounds like yes.  Will this offer give you better access and potentially better pictures?  It sounds like yes.  If you refuse the offer will they hire in a professional?  It sounds like no.

Not much help I know, but some issues to think about.  And never use the term semi-professional.  It only exsists in camera shops.  If you do start making money from your hobby and turn it into something else (and this is a whole new debate, the fun starts to go, it's no longer yours) do you expect to only get semi-paid?
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

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paul13walnut5

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2013, 10:23:05 AM »
Good luck with it if you take it on, would be interested in seeing your images.  I'm snapping some jousting at linlithgow next weekend, just for fun, hopefully have my 7d back by then

Pag

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2013, 10:44:21 AM »
I'm looking into offering my photography skills for money too, so this discussion is of interest to me. Regarding fees, one thing that can be educational is to look at gear renting service (like http://www.lensrentalscanada.com/) and see how much it costs to rent the gear you need for the shoot.

For example, the minimum to rent a 60D, a 18-200mm and a 10-22mm (which seems like a low cost combo that would cover your needs for this event) is 234$ (probably plus shipping and taxes). If it costs 234$ to rent the equipment for the shoot, why should it cost less than that to rent the equipment in addition to a skilled person to handle the equipment and process the pictures? If you weren't there, they would have to pay more to have just the camera and the lenses!

Here's another way to look at it. Around my place, you would be hard pressed to find a plumber to work for much less than 100$ per hour. You are providing your clients with marketing material that will help them promote their event and sell various products (calendars, etc.) -- to me that sounds more valuable than hiring a plumber. It may sound like a lot of money per hour, but remember that you're also paying for transport, equipment, insurance, marketing, time spent negotiating the contract, accounting, heck even the downtime between projects (I bet your day job keeps paying you even if work is a bit low one week), etc.

With that said, I'm not saying you should necessarily say no to this offer. If it sounds like fun, or a great learning opportunity then maybe it's worth it. But don't think you're doing it for the money, because I don't think they're paying you fairly. You're doing it for fun, and the money is a nice extra. And keep the copyright, otherwise you won't even be able to use those shots in your portfolio.

alexanderferdinand

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2013, 11:37:39 AM »
Its not only a matter to ruin the other photographers income, you should never sell yourself too cheap.
It seems to be a psychological fact: if this is so cheap, can't be worth much.
And to postprocess this amount of pictures will last, I know this; cause you want to the pictures to look good.

Ok, you will learn. But the others have too.

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2013, 11:44:51 AM »
Paul Walnut makes some good points. I'll add a few thoughts of my own.

If this a public re-enactment? In other words, do they invite the public to come out and watch? Or is it a closed set, such as for a movie or documentary.

I'm guessing it's a public or semi-public event, in which case anyone with a camera could come out and shoot pictures. They are then paying you $100 so they can get guaranteed access to your pictures and the ability to use those pictures.

Are they paying you enough? Is it fair? Not really, but then again, they are paying you $100 and presumably giving you some access that others don't have. Also, they may or may not be publishing your pictures. Since this a resume builder for you, only you can decide if it is worth it.

What I would not do, though, is offer them any sort of exclusive right to your photos. You want to retain your own ability to use the photos in your portfolio. If they just want a hundred or so nice JPGS that are processed and ready for conversion into CMYK, that's one thing. If they want you to agree not to use the pictures yourself, that's quite another. That's why it is important if this is a public event. If it is, then they don't really have much ability to restrict or limit how you use the pictures.

Personally, I'd try to negotiate photo credits and 25-50 copies of any publication they may use them in. That's far more useful to you than the $100.

Most importantly, I would strongly urge you to treat this like a job paying $10,000.

That means, doing research on the group beforehand. Clearing your day of everything else. Getting there early in the morning and shooting them setting up, getting ready, etc. etc., talking to the re-enactors to find out what roles they are playing (most model themselves after a specific person or create their own persona), asking them how the "battle" has been scripted (who gives the orders to charge, fire, etc. and etc.,) scope out the best vantage points, shoot detail shots before the action happens, shoot portraits before the action happens, etc. etc.

Many times, the re-enactors come in the night before and set up camp with tents, etc. Find out if that is the case and be prepared to show up the evening before to shoot some of that activity.

Why do this? First, to get the best pictures possible and second, to show them that you are a professional, even if they don't pay you like one. If people ask you what you are getting paid, tell them you are doing this as a pro-bono project because you want to help the organization.

After the event, turn around the images as quickly as you can. Give them a great selection of nicely processed images in both full size jpg and web-optimized formats. Make sure you clearly label them as such in their file names, so they don't try to use a 72ppi image in a publication. Give them the images on a USB drive.

You want to leave them with the impression that you are professional and you want them to spread the word around their peers that this person is a real pro and shot the best pictures they've ever seen.

Finally, by treating this as a professional job, you'll get a taste for what it entails. You'll understand better how many hours such an assignment really requires and you'll be better able to gauge 1) if doing this on a professional basis is worth it to you and 2) if the market could ever bear the cost that would be required to make this profitable for you.
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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2013, 11:44:51 AM »

infared

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2013, 11:57:14 AM »
For that amount of compensation, I would leave my camera at home and just bring a musket for any shooting I would be doing.  :D
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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2013, 12:53:53 PM »
Paul Walnut makes some good points. I'll add a few thoughts of my own.

If this a public re-enactment? In other words, do they invite the public to come out and watch? Or is it a closed set, such as for a movie or documentary.

I'm guessing it's a public or semi-public event, in which case anyone with a camera could come out and shoot pictures. They are then paying you $100 so they can get guaranteed access to your pictures and the ability to use those pictures.

Are they paying you enough? Is it fair? Not really, but then again, they are paying you $100 and presumably giving you some access that others don't have. Also, they may or may not be publishing your pictures. Since this a resume builder for you, only you can decide if it is worth it.

What I would not do, though, is offer them any sort of exclusive right to your photos. You want to retain your own ability to use the photos in your portfolio. If they just want a hundred or so nice JPGS that are processed and ready for conversion into CMYK, that's one thing. If they want you to agree not to use the pictures yourself, that's quite another. That's why it is important if this is a public event. If it is, then they don't really have much ability to restrict or limit how you use the pictures.

Personally, I'd try to negotiate photo credits and 25-50 copies of any publication they may use them in. That's far more useful to you than the $100.

Most importantly, I would strongly urge you to treat this like a job paying $10,000.

That means, doing research on the group beforehand. Clearing your day of everything else. Getting there early in the morning and shooting them setting up, getting ready, etc. etc., talking to the re-enactors to find out what roles they are playing (most model themselves after a specific person or create their own persona), asking them how the "battle" has been scripted (who gives the orders to charge, fire, etc. and etc.,) scope out the best vantage points, shoot detail shots before the action happens, shoot portraits before the action happens, etc. etc.

Many times, the re-enactors come in the night before and set up camp with tents, etc. Find out if that is the case and be prepared to show up the evening before to shoot some of that activity.

Why do this? First, to get the best pictures possible and second, to show them that you are a professional, even if they don't pay you like one. If people ask you what you are getting paid, tell them you are doing this as a pro-bono project because you want to help the organization.

After the event, turn around the images as quickly as you can. Give them a great selection of nicely processed images in both full size jpg and web-optimized formats. Make sure you clearly label them as such in their file names, so they don't try to use a 72ppi image in a publication. Give them the images on a USB drive.

You want to leave them with the impression that you are professional and you want them to spread the word around their peers that this person is a real pro and shot the best pictures they've ever seen.

Finally, by treating this as a professional job, you'll get a taste for what it entails. You'll understand better how many hours such an assignment really requires and you'll be better able to gauge 1) if doing this on a professional basis is worth it to you and 2) if the market could ever bear the cost that would be required to make this profitable for you.

that advice is worth more than $100 !

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Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2013, 12:53:53 PM »