July 28, 2014, 09:27:59 AM

Author Topic: REVISED W/ CONTRACT INFO Is this a fair offer for an on location job?  (Read 6392 times)

bdunbar79

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2558
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2013, 01:25:38 PM »
I don't give out advice on message boards, because I'm just too big of a pro.  (grins)

Anyways, my advice.  Do it for $100.  Learn as much as you possibly can and time everything.  See how long it takes you from start to finish.  This will give you a good idea of what kind of an effort this takes.  I know $100 isn't much, but I help out the Mansfield News Journal, and they pay me $40 to show up, $10 for front page photo, and then $2/photo for the gallery.  If I give them 65 photos, that's $180 but that's a full-rate professional shoot, so to speak, so doing this for $100 isn't that bad.  You may love it or not like it at all, and this will be a great gauge to tell if you'd like to keep doing jobs for money, or remain doing it just for fun.
2 x 1DX
Big Ten, GLIAC, NCAC

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2013, 01:25:38 PM »

docholliday

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 186
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2013, 01:33:29 PM »
I appreciate the help.  I consider professionals as someone who earns the bulk of their income from being in their profession,  in  this case as a photographer.  I  consider a  semi-pro  as  someone who earns money  but if they stopped tomorrow,  they  don't have to sell their house or car.

 Regardless of whether you are a semi-pro or pro,  professionalism  should be a given.   showing up on time and prepared,  with quick turnarounds,  with a high quality product. 
 
You aspire to be a semi-professional? 

What is a semi-professional?  It's a term devised by marketing folk to upsell from base models. 

If you want to be a professional then take out liability insurance (in case any of the actors fall over your gear) equipment insurance (in case your gear gets pranged) and indemnity insurance (in case your photos don't work out for any reason and the event promotors seek redress - if you enter a contract to take images for them and you for some reason don't then they will probably sue you) remember also to do your books, so you can pay your dues of income tax and corporate tax (hire an accountant to see what of your expenses you can claim against the $100)

I'm not saying this to be facetious, just that is what professional means, and your are either doing it as a professional (with the pressure and expectations and legal ramifications) or you are doing it because you'll enjoy it and learn from it and get your petrol money and lunch covered.

Regarding copyright, this would be covered in the contract.  You may decide a limited license, stating that copyright cannot be transferred to a third party other than by you, or define explicit terms of use. 

This is the problem with amateurs vs professionals...  amateurs get a bit possessive about money after the event, professionals have it all sorted before they turn a frame.

I do video professionally, for a large media company and some freelance.  If I'm getting paid for time and for the use of my equipment then I just see it that whoever paying me has the copyright. 

Would you otherwise be taking images of the event?  It sounds like yes.  Will this offer give you better access and potentially better pictures?  It sounds like yes.  If you refuse the offer will they hire in a professional?  It sounds like no.

Not much help I know, but some issues to think about.  And never use the term semi-professional.  It only exsists in camera shops.  If you do start making money from your hobby and turn it into something else (and this is a whole new debate, the fun starts to go, it's no longer yours) do you expect to only get semi-paid?

That's the wrong way to look at it. A pro is somebody who knows 1) how to get the job done, no matter what gets thrown at them 2) has the gear at hand to do so 3) may or may not make money on the job (charity work anybody?) and 4) has the skills, insight, foresight, hindsight, and balls to output exactly what the client (even if that is themself) wants. It has nothing to do with money. I absolutely hate it when amateurs call themselves "pros" or "semi-pro". I prefer the word pro to mean "proficient", not "professional". A professional is anybody who does something for a living - doesn't mean they even need to know what they're doing. There are some "professionals" that suck at their job - but they make money at it. Remember that even in medical/law/nuclear science schools - somebody had to graduate last.

An amateur is somebody who dabbles - has fun, and may make some money on the side. They usually don't have one of the following: gear, skills, knowledge, and/or experience to get a job done when all hell breaks loose. When a shoot suddenly gets dark and needs light, they usually give up. Or, when a lens gets dropped, they don't have a backup/overlap to get the job done. The rich amateurs usually have the gear, and some knowledge, but not enough experience to fix a shot in < 10 seconds under pressure. BUT, it's not required to be an amateur - you can just say screw it and walk away! The pro has to produce the final output - or they're going to get the screwing in the end!

That's what I was saying in my last post - don't tell them your a pro, don't act like a pro - unless you plan on being dead-nuts-on proficient at producing the necessary output. And, if that's the case, I'm sure you aren't going to settle on low $$$, no contract, and lost copyrights. Instead, take the $100 as some gas money, go have fun, but be sure to let them know (in writing/email/etc) what to expect first. That "contract" is as semi-pro as you should ever be. BUT, if you want to be pro, then it's time to act like one - charge accordingly, contract solidly, backup appropriately, and know what jobs to pass on!

And, for gods sake, don't EVER give away copyright blatently and blindly to ANYONE. You shot it, so it's yours - they can have USAGE right, but you should NEVER give away images.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 01:42:54 PM by docholliday »

Dylan777

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3686
    • View Profile
    • http://dylannguyen.500px.com/home
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2013, 01:40:09 PM »
I have 4 friends(Pro wedding), they started to shoot wedding in 1996. In the first 2 years, they made almost no money. The only thing that kept them going was "PASSION".

Why?
1. Competition
2. Build your own portfolio and Reputation
3. Understand photography business
4. Strong advertising
5. ADVERTISING
6. MORE & MORE & MORE ADVERTISING

They now rent 10,000 square feet warehouse as their studio. Customers are booking them every single weekends. They even hire 4 assistants to answer phone calls etc,,,while they are out in the weekend shooting weddings. 

If you serious about photography - take the offer and get ready. Even they ONLY pay you gas money and a burger + drink. Tell them you will be using the pictures as your portfolio.

Wishing you the best and post some pictures ;)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 01:42:03 PM by Dylan777 »
Body: 1DX -- 5D III
Zoom: 24-70L II -- 70-200L f2.8 IS II
Prime: 40mm -- 85L II -- 135L -- 400L f2.8 IS II

bdunbar79

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2558
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2013, 01:46:30 PM »
Even the universities I shoot for don't take copyright from me.  They're still all my photos as they just want useage rights.  Good point.
2 x 1DX
Big Ten, GLIAC, NCAC

tpatana

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2013, 04:15:41 PM »

If you want to do it, then do it. It's not about money (always).

But, make sure to clarify with them:

For that money you'll deliver FB-quality jpegs, and you can use the photos for your own use/portfolio as you please.

If they don't accept that, well... you should still do it if you want, but try to gain leverage at least on the copyright that you _also_ can use the pics.

emag

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 316
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2013, 04:27:31 PM »
Bring the family and have fun.  Keep copyright.  Bring the fisheye.  Post some photos.

jdramirez

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2173
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2013, 08:35:53 PM »
 So to follow up, I  got the  job.   I'm getting a letter with  the details in  the  mail.

I  went ahead and got a p o  box  so I didn't have to give out my home address.   so that's 18  bucks that goes against whatever I actually make.

 so when I get the contract... I  will be picking yall's brain once again.  Thanks for the help  so far.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100 f/2.8L->85mm f/1.8 USM->135L -> 8mm ->100L

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2013, 08:35:53 PM »

tron

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1781
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2013, 09:39:22 AM »
And, for gods sake, don't EVER give away copyright blatantly and blindly to ANYONE. You shot it, so it's yours - they can have USAGE right, but you should NEVER give away images.
I am not a pro, neither wishing to be one and I have another job. So I cannot comment on your generally helpful and interesting suggestions.

BUT, the above quoted phrase I believe SUMS it up as good as possible for EVERYONE (amateur or professional).

jdramirez

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2173
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2013, 08:48:44 PM »
So I got the contract today... and ouch. 

The guy did give me a free book... and if I were to be down there on Tuesday (which I won't be) I would also get a $30 meal.  And if I cared about that topic at all, it would be an awesome experience because I would meet with people I otherwise wouldn't have access too... if I have a uniform, I could be on the field taking pictures...

But I don't have a uniform, so I will ultimately be in a tower... and my mkiii plus the 200mm isn't going to have a ton of reach to get WOW photos... so I think we are going to wind up doing it all for naught... because being 100 yards away from the battle will only get you wide angle shots and not really nice close ups where you can see the faux tension of battle. 

But I have to give up all rights to the photos... which is wild.  As it reads, I won't even be able to have them in my portfolio... but I would be published.  I wasn't planning on doing anything that weekend... so I might as well do it... even though I am basically being raped by the publisher. 

So tell me what yall think... I want the job for the sheets and gigs... so I don't want to renegotiate to the point to where I'm told to stay home... but it feels like there is a GOOD deal of room to negotiate. 

But it would also basically be $100 per day just to sit at the sidelines filling up a few cards of what I presume will be very mediocre photographs... so it is at least something to do.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100 f/2.8L->85mm f/1.8 USM->135L -> 8mm ->100L

Ripley

  • Canon AE-1
  • ***
  • Posts: 76
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2013, 10:11:38 PM »

So tell me what yall think... I want the job for the sheets and gigs...

So you want to do it just because, which is completely understandable - done. The money covers your expenses plus a little extra - done. The only thing left to work out is quality of work and portfolio material.

I would at minimum try to get the contract amended to state that you can use a portion of the photographs for portfolio reasons, not to be printed, and not to be sold or relicensed or published. I think if you word a paragraph properly and thoroughly, you could sell this. As long as the clients interests are addressed and protected, they won't care. Make sure you stress why you want to reuse only a few of the pictures and legally restrict yourself to doing just that. It's not great, but it's better than what you have on paper now.

As far as quality of work, you need vantage points and access. I would try to get a little more verbal leeway to get the shots somehow, someway. And come the day of the shoot, as the day wears on, remember the old adage: "It's easier to get forgiven than it is to get permission".

A few things about negotiating - 1) You'd be surprised how much you can get away with as long as you address the clients concerns and agree to what they are willing to pay. Which in your case sounds like "Here's a hundred bucks, go get me some decent shots. I don't want to incur any liability and I don't want to give you access so you can turn around and outsmart me on a way to make money off pictures of my venue". Standard beginner stuff. 2) Always keep the tone positive and when you can't get something you want, force them to give up something they want (or lighten your load). For example if I can't get decent shots and I can't use any of them for my portfolio - Fine no problems, sounds good I'll see you then. And then I'd show up with my spare camera, my cheapest lens, and have the best time I could possibly have enjoying a free reenactment while taking a couple hundred photos I don't care about. All of which will have been disclosed to the client verbally via a statement such as "I told you when you wouldn't grant me access to the key locations the images would suffer". And they're going to. And it's not your fault.

Anyways, I hope you enjoy it.
5Diii | 24-70L ii | 70-200L ii | 600EX-RT x 2 | ST-E3-RT

expatinasia

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 894
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2013, 10:29:25 PM »
So I got the contract today...  if I have a uniform, I could be on the field taking pictures... But I don't have a uniform, so I will ultimately be in a tower...

Oh come on! This is part of being a photographer, you do what you have to do to get the best pics from the job you are given, so get a uniform!!

Surely you can make, rent or borrow one!
1D X + backup + different L lenses etc.

jdramirez

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2173
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2013, 10:48:47 PM »
So I got the contract today...  if I have a uniform, I could be on the field taking pictures... But I don't have a uniform, so I will ultimately be in a tower...

Oh come on! This is part of being a photographer, you do what you have to do to get the best pics from the job you are given, so get a uniform!!

Surely you can make, rent or borrow one!

The uniform isn't easy to find.  It's not like it is Halloween time and I just need to get a Spongebob outfit.  This is the 150th anniversary of the Battle at Gettysburg.  30,000+ people are coming in and are going to flood a pretty small town.  I'm SURE some have been planning this trip for 5 years.

The rules for reenactors require that they have period style eyeglasses (wire rims).  So I'm guessing buy a bluish grey long sleeve t-shirt will fly. 

I want to get closer to the action... I thought we would have a chance to do so if we worse muted colors... but nope.  And maybe I can rent the one costume that is in my size that wasn't reserved by the other 30,000 people. 

Having said that... I agree with you... I wanted to be in the thick of things... and I don't want spectator positioning. 
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100 f/2.8L->85mm f/1.8 USM->135L -> 8mm ->100L

Ripley

  • Canon AE-1
  • ***
  • Posts: 76
    • View Profile
Re: REVISED W/ CONTRACT INFO Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2013, 06:17:09 PM »
Well, what happened?    :)
5Diii | 24-70L ii | 70-200L ii | 600EX-RT x 2 | ST-E3-RT

canon rumors FORUM

Re: REVISED W/ CONTRACT INFO Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2013, 06:17:09 PM »

tron

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1781
    • View Profile
Re: REVISED W/ CONTRACT INFO Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2013, 07:18:51 PM »
I would never agree giving up the rights but it's your call. What has happened ?

jdramirez

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2173
    • View Profile
Re: REVISED W/ CONTRACT INFO Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2013, 09:25:50 PM »
Well, what happened?    :)

I went out with my best gear... I shot from the fringes of the action because I didn't have anything that was even close to being consider period specific, and most of my photos were... ehhh... meh... ok... good... but not anything that I would really fight tooth and nail for. 

Part of it was shooting from the fringes... the other part is that it is really difficult to recreate the sense that you might die during a reenactment.  Heck... no blood, no guts, it just simply was a tough venue when you weren't embedded in the action. 

There were some shots the other team members got that were WOW (as viewed on a 3inch lcd screen), but I didn't even see any compelling images that warranted being captured. 

So there I was... having a GREAT time... getting paid a little, getting treated much better than the paying patrons, getting free water, free potato chips, free peanut butter crackers, primo shooting from the fringes, and chit chatting a great group of guys. 

Honestly... I got a great experience out of it... and the publisher got about 1000 photos using pro levlel gear, but that were ok.  It painted a picture of the battle, but not of the depth of emotion and feeling. 

Oh... and I got primo parking and rides on a golf cart to/from wherever I wanted on the battlefield. 

So I had fun and I'd do it again... but I'd make a stop at ye old goodwill and see if I could find something that was period specific so I could get up close to the action.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100 f/2.8L->85mm f/1.8 USM->135L -> 8mm ->100L

canon rumors FORUM

Re: REVISED W/ CONTRACT INFO Is this a fair offer for an on location job?
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2013, 09:25:50 PM »