July 28, 2014, 05:04:16 PM

Author Topic: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?  (Read 28179 times)

CarlTN

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #90 on: June 28, 2013, 01:03:30 AM »
Did I put you down? 

You called me and Neuro ignorant about the 6D AF system.
And you said that luciolepri is regurgitating stuff heard elsewhere.

So, yes, you are putting people down.

But let me tell you something:
Canon has publicly stated in interviews and in articles how they had to cut corners in order to achieve the 6D 'low' price.
In other words, they made a lot of compromises - and they publicly admitted making them.

Your precious 6D is far from perfect; in fact it's quite compromised. Canon admitted it themselves.

So, be angry at Canon for making those compromises.
Not at the people that are simply disapproving of (some of) them - and shared their disappointments in this thread.

Hold on, now you're quoting my reply to someone else, agierke?  Ok...I'm pretty sure I didn't put him down.

Saying you are ignorant of an AF system, or someone regurgitating stuff read elsewhere...you can take it as a put down if you want, but it is not meant to be from my perspective.  You are all being too thin skinned, just as some of you have accused me of being in the past.  If I say someone is ignorant, it means they have not learned something.  It's not a put down.  If I say someone is regurgitating...sure that can sound a tad harsh, but it literally is point for point, what many many people have said about the 6D and what it lacks relative to the 5D3, in its feature set...so by definition, it is regurgitating words, ideas.  I suppose I should have put that another way, so I apologize for the harshness.  It's not as bad as me being called a liar, though.

I've never said the 6D was not designed to a price point, or that it was "perfect" (I might have said it's perfect for me, I don't recall...would be surprised if I haven't said that more than once).  However, at its price point, it is not much of a compromise.  To you it is, to me it is not.  And I have stated why.  The autofocus might not have a lot of points, it might not be the aged 7D's autofocus (soon to be regurg....errr...re-used in the new 70D, as I always thought it would)...

But my point that I have belabored, is that the 6D's autofocus does work quite well.  When it doesn't, it's either the sensor itself is defective, or else someone is trying to use it as if it were a 5D3's autofocus (as above).  It is not demonstrably inferior to its competition's AF (the D600).  And yet many of you keep bringing the 5D3 into it, claiming the 6D is the 5D3's competition.  If it is, then it is the 5D3 that is too compromised, because it certainly has most all the feature set a camera should have, superb video ability, and the higher price to accompany that.

So I'm not angry with Canon, I have no reason to be.  I am not angry about anything at all, despite what I admit is some forceful rhetoric.  But it is not me who is complaining about a camera I don't even own.  I have no real complaints about the 6D, but I did highlight what I felt were its shortcomings. 

However, it just might be...that some people are angry that Canon built another full frame camera that actually works well if given half a chance and an open mind, yet costs less than their precious gem that they thought was going to be the one and only, exclusive full frame camera made by Canon, other than the more pricey pro body.  But this is not 2008 anymore, and thankfully Canon and Nikon decided it was time, and had the ability to fill a niche, and create a new product line.

I apologize if I got too personal with you or anyone else.  I don't think I did, but if you do, I'm sorry. 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 01:07:01 AM by CarlTN »

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #90 on: June 28, 2013, 01:03:30 AM »

NCHANT

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #91 on: June 28, 2013, 01:06:21 AM »
I haven't read through this thread yet, but so far I am loving my 6D to bits.

A bit about me - I'm no pro photographer and have only been shooting for 14 months. I have stepped up from a 600D, so jumping to full frame was certainly different, but didn't take much to get use to. I shoot landscapes, cityscapes, and recently trying to shoot people.

For landscapes the 6D is perfect.

For people however, there are things I wish it had but happy to compromise. Everyone talks about the 11 point AF system and I agree, could be better. I am finding I have to focus then recompose the shot most of the time, makes shooting a touch slow. But that aside the quality of the shots 5000 ISO + is un-matched from what I have experienced so far.

:)

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #92 on: June 28, 2013, 04:15:58 AM »
The fact is, you did not know a basic aspect of the 6D's autofocus, thus you misused it...and based on that, you found FALSELY that it was somehow the camera's fault that you did not get all the shots in focus in your little test.  When in reality, it was your own lack of knowledge that very likely caused most of the problem.  You assumed the 6D's autofocus worked like the 5D3's or 1DX's, regarding selecting a single point in servo mode, and assuming the point would transition to other points.  Since there was no transition, once the target moved off your selected AF point, there was nothing for the system to focus on...and thus your subject moved out of the plane of focus.  The focus certainly did lose lock, but it was your fault that it did.

All this really proves, is that most of the time, regarding the 6D's supposed lack of AF ability, or lack of making itself seem "impressive", it's really a lack of an impressive photographer using the camera.

When did I assume that?  From what I can tell, I'm not the one making ass-umptions here.  For someone who 'didn't make a false statement' you just made another one.  Or if you prefer, an incorrect assumption based on ignorance of the facts.

Re-read what I stated...and what you stated...

When I tried servo tracking with an outer point on the 6D, it would frequently start out in focus then drift successively to backfocusing as the kid ran closer.  The 1D X and 5DIII had no problem in that scenario.  That may be technique, though - I suspect if I'd used just the center point, the 6D would have fared better.  But that would mean cropping away a lot of the final images, since for composition purposes I prefer to leave the subject 'room to run' within the frame.  With the center point on the 6D, the handoff to the outer points sometimes 'missed' and the outer point would lock onto a pipe on the wall or something - the high density of the 5DIII/1D X AF sensor makes those handoffs seamless.

“When I tried starting the servo tracking with an outer point on the 6D, it would frequently start out in focus then drift successively to backfocusing as the kid ran closer.”

Well, I can see why you had a problem here, because the 6D is not designed to specify a single point, then transition to other points in servo mode.  You have to leave it on that one point, and keep the subject on it as you pan.  You have to leave all points active, in order to track subjects that move across the frame, as you did in that situation.  This is also how the 5D2’s AF worked, is it not? 

The 5D3 and 1DX are the only bodies where you could do the action you are describing.  There is no “handoff” from point to point here, that the 6D can do.  You can only select single points at a time, or else leave them all active.  You should have just left them all active for this situation…which I will admit will still leave you with a lower hit rate than the 5D3 or 1DX.  The reason being, the top and especially the bottom points, absolutely love to grab foreground details on the ground and focus on them, rather than on the subject in the center vertical third of the frame.  If there was a way to select all but the top and bottom points, then the AF system of the 6D would be even closer to the performance of the higher density, higher AF-point sensor…in servo mode...in my opinion.  So that is definitely a case where Canon have "hobbled" the AF, and they should not have.

Did I include enough context for you?  I stated, "When I tried servo tracking with an outer point on the 6D, it would frequently start out in focus then drift successively to backfocusing as the kid ran closer," and subsequently, "With the center point on the 6D, the handoff to the outer points sometimes 'missed' and the outer point would lock onto a pipe on the wall or something."

You added a couple of extra words to my statement, "When I tried starting the servo tracking with an outer point on the 6D, it would frequently start out in focus then drift successively to backfocusing as the kid ran closer.” The point I was making was that servo tracking with a 6D outer point could not keep up with a kid running towards me, even with a fast-focusing lens like the 70-200 II.

I then went on to state that, "With the center point on the 6D, the handoff to the outer points sometimes 'missed'," and in that case, I was in automatic AF point selection mode, where the 6D should hand off the focus from the center point to the outer points...and again, it often failed to do so. 

So, you apparently put my statement about poor tracking with an outer point and my seperate statement about poor handing off from the center point to the outer points together, and came to the conclusion that I was expecting servo tracking from an outer point to hand off to a center point.  Of course, I could also have been in 11-pt auto select, started with the center point over my subject, then recomposed so an outer point was over the subject...and in that case, the focus should have been handed off from the outer point (back to) the center point with continuous if the subject moved through the frame.  That was a technique I used with my 5DII...it even worked - about a third of the time.

So to summarize, I was using the 6D's AF system within it's design parameters, and using it correctly.  It just wasn't holding up it's end of the bargain.  But because I stated that it was failing to track a moving kid, you assumed (and have regurgitated several times) that I was trying to use it incorrectly due to ignorance of it's proper function, instead of accepting that the 6D just couldn't track the kid.  Staunch defense in the face of facts.  Nice.  I'd accuse you of being a FLAO (fanboi with loss of all objectivity), except you did basically call two of the 6D's AF points crap (apologies, to be precise you stated, "...the top and especially the bottom points, absolutely love to grab foreground details on the ground and focus on them, rather than on the subject in the center vertical third of the frame.").

I didn't make a false statement, again you are quoting me out of context.  You never mentioned that you had tried the 6D yourself (or at least I did not see where you did...before I made the above observation.  If you had said so in your preceding post, then my statement would have been false.)

Ignorance of the facts at the time you make a statement does not make your statement true.  If you stated that I had blue eyes, that would be false too, regardless of whether or not I had previously stated my eye color.  You made an assumption (several, actually) and you were wrong, but you won't admit it.  But you go right ahead and crusade for the 6D...after all, it's a forum where you can express your opinion....even if that opinion is based on ignorance of certain facts and false assumptions about other facts. 

Better yet, let's see some of those small birds and running kids tracked with your 6D...grab your 6D and go take some pictures, and show us those!
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Marsu42

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #93 on: June 28, 2013, 05:57:24 AM »
Did I include enough context for you?  I stated, "When I tried servo tracking with an outer point on the 6D, it would frequently start out in focus then drift successively to backfocusing as the kid ran closer," and subsequently, "With the center point on the 6D, the handoff to the outer points sometimes 'missed' and the outer point would lock onto a pipe on the wall or something."

I have to admit I find it valiant to have even expected this af system to hand over focus between the points as "real" multi-point af systems (5d3, d600, d7000) do :-) ... on the 9pt crop cameras the focus points are too far apart for focus handover to work in real life, but they interpolate the focus if the tracked object covers multiple points.

On the 5d2/6d I'd also rather expect the outer points to serve as helpers for the center to do some correction, but not to work as 11/9 real, independent but interconnected points... or did anyone get them to work that way (I'd be delighted)? With this af point spread it doesn't seem plausible for the camera firmware to be designed with "real" multi-point functionality in mind.

One interesting piece of information: Canon deactivated "focus patterns" on the 6d - with the 5d2 (and all 9pt crop cameras) you could select patterns with Magic Lantern like the 3 leftmost,  the 4 around the center and so on. Since this isn't possible anymore on the 6d it might be that Canon even in internal development expects the 6d to perform only ok in either "single/center point only" or "center + all other points as helpers", i.e. no real handover.

luciolepri

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #94 on: June 28, 2013, 07:37:57 AM »
I can understand your persepective, of course.  I would just like to see the terrible moire you experienced with it, yourself.  I know it exists, I just was curious.

Here is a capture from a 6D video... Nothing like that ever happened to me with the 5DMKIII or the 1DX. And I can assure you that on video this is much worse than it looks in this picture because those lines and circles are moving! So, in my opinion, ad far as video is concerned, the 6D is just a 5DMKII with very much improved high ISO performances, a better central AF point, but a much worse ergonomic and a much cheaper body. So, all in all, as a second body I still prefer by far my old 5DMKII with the ML firmware.

P.S.= sorry for the creepy faces...

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #95 on: June 28, 2013, 07:46:33 AM »
On the 5d2/6d I'd also rather expect the outer points to serve as helpers for the center to do some correction, but not to work as 11/9 real, independent but interconnected points... or did anyone get them to work that way (I'd be delighted)? With this af point spread it doesn't seem plausible for the camera firmware to be designed with "real" multi-point functionality in mind.

Keep in mind that while many people refer to the 5DII as a 9-pt system, it has 15 AF points.  Only 9 are selectable, the 6 'invisible' points sit between the center and the outer points, and are active only during AI Servo focusing (if enabled - they're off by default).  Now, I'm not saying the 5DII was actually good at handing off from the center to the outer points...but it was designed to do so.
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Marsu42

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2013, 08:05:36 AM »
Here is a capture from a 6D video... Nothing like that ever happened to me with the 5DMKIII or the 1DX.

Canon took great care to make the 5d3 an excellent video camera (with Magic Lantern :-)) and to make the 6d a stills (non-action) shooting camera, for my (lack of) money they could have just removed video alltogether and cut the price by €200.

You can plug a 3rd party aa filter into the 6d just like the 5d3, but considering the price you could also go straight for the 5d3... if people buy the 6d for video it's their own fault considering the well-known moire problem since the 20mp sensor isn't built to downsample like the 22mp version.

Keep in mind that while many people refer to the 5DII as a 9-pt system, it has 15 AF points.  Only 9 are selectable, the 6 'invisible' points sit between the center and the outer points, and are active only during AI Servo focusing (if enabled - they're off by default).  Now, I'm not saying the 5DII was actually good at handing off from the center to the outer points...but it was designed to do so.

That's what I intended to write :-) ... Canon tried on the 5d2 and failed, and they stopped trying on the 6d because the rationale is that anybody who wants a real multi-point af should buy the 5d3 (or a 1d4 or Nikon :->).

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2013, 08:05:36 AM »

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #97 on: June 28, 2013, 08:22:20 AM »
You can plug a 3rd party aa filter into the 6d just like the 5d3, but considering the price you could also go straight for the 5d3

I had the chance to try the Mosaic filter on the 5D MKII, 6D and 7D and it works great, but with wide lenses borders are very blurred, so that's not a real solution. And as you pointed, that filter is so expensive that you can seriously consider a camera upgrade, instead. Or maybe there are others, better AA filters, but I don't know about them...

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2013, 11:02:53 AM »
I don't understand you guys, when you are comparing 6d with 5d mark3.  it's different products. the 6d is for the people, who was shooting with cameras like 1000D, or 600D and they just want better image quality in low light, or have wider angle. if you will compare the 6D auto focus with my old 550D, then it's insane fast. i am using only center point in both cameras, and the focus speed is about 2x faster. example: i have 100mm macro f2.8, not L lens. with 550D i can't shoot slowly walking people, but with 6D and the same lens, with the center point only, i can shoot like this easy:

my friend with the bike was moving really fast. and i done about 5 shoots continuously. all in perfect focus. jpg, strait from the camera.


the video is bad, i know. but again, if you was shooting video with old camera, you have now possibility to shoot at 12.800 iso easy or even in 16.000, and have the better result than 550D in 3200 iso. so it's more than 2 stops of additional light, and still better quality. and if i was a film maker, i will not buy the 6D and no one buy it for video. but to film my life around, it's perfect.

the one thing, the camera is bad, is that you cant keep the exposure in one level. if you shoot few frames in Aperture mode, same object, you will have +-1 Ev in your shots. sometimes less, sometimes more. it sucks. but that's only bad thing for me.

the camera is not for people, who want to use it as a job tool. but for hobby more. and in hobby you don't have something to important to need second card slot, or 60 focus points and so on. so it's perfect camera for 3 or 4 years.

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #99 on: June 28, 2013, 11:30:35 AM »
I don't understand you guys, when you are comparing 6d with 5d mark3.  it's different products.

I think we can all agree with you, but since the topic was "What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D" we were just pointing out its weaknesses. If the 6D was as good as the 5DMKIII it wouldn't cost 1500 $ less, that's obvious. Considering its price, it's definitely a very good FF camera, for stills. Personally, I was disappointed because after using the 5DMKIII and the 1DX I thought that the terrible moiré era was ended at Canon and that I could get a good and quite cheap second body... turned out I was wrong.

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #100 on: June 28, 2013, 11:34:21 AM »
^^

Nice one ! I can see from the look on your mates face that you've told him to focus on the 6D nay-sayers and run 'em down.

Marsu42

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #101 on: June 28, 2013, 11:37:12 AM »
if you will compare the 6D auto focus with my old 550D, then it's insane fast.

<sarcasm>Maybe we should just be more lenient with Canon and start comparing the 6d only with 6 year older camera, ignoring the fact that you can get three (3) current Rebel 700d for one (1) 6d :-> ... but sure enough the 6d will do just fine for high contrast objects moving in a predictable straight fashion in the center of the frame like the motor cycle you shot, you'll even only need a singe af point for that.</sarcasm>

But this proves that there are very different ideas what to do with a camera and if €1700 is a good price for what the 6d delivers, and a thread like this should help people sort out if the 6d is a good choice for them.

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #102 on: June 28, 2013, 11:43:18 AM »
I don't understand you guys, when you are comparing 6d with 5d mark3.  it's different products. the 6d is for the people, who was shooting with cameras like 1000D, or 600D and they just want better image quality in low light, or have wider angle. if you will compare the 6D auto focus with my old 550D, then it's insane fast. i am using only center point in both cameras, and the focus speed is about 2x faster. example: i have 100mm macro f2.8, not L lens. with 550D i can't shoot slowly walking people, but with 6D and the same lens, with the center point only, i can shoot like this easy:

my friend with the bike was moving really fast. and i done about 5 shoots continuously. all in perfect focus. jpg, strait from the camera.


the video is bad, i know. but again, if you was shooting video with old camera, you have now possibility to shoot at 12.800 iso easy or even in 16.000, and have the better result than 550D in 3200 iso. so it's more than 2 stops of additional light, and still better quality. and if i was a film maker, i will not buy the 6D and no one buy it for video. but to film my life around, it's perfect.

the one thing, the camera is bad, is that you cant keep the exposure in one level. if you shoot few frames in Aperture mode, same object, you will have +-1 Ev in your shots. sometimes less, sometimes more. it sucks. but that's only bad thing for me.

the camera is not for people, who want to use it as a job tool. but for hobby more. and in hobby you don't have something to important to need second card slot, or 60 focus points and so on. so it's perfect camera for 3 or 4 years.

Don't forget those already on FF that need a decent backup body!  the 6d is a fine companion to the 5d3!  I probably wouldn't be complimenting the 6d as much if that was my only FF body, because I can use the 6d up until i hit the wall of its features (IE, if i am shooting wide open on a prime lens in the sun, yeah, it may be time to set the 6d down and pick up the mk3 because I may need to go over 1/4000th.  If i am shooting at a wedding, reception, dancing, I may want to switch to the mk3 for fast moving dancing, because the servo mode is not so good.  If i am in low light, using ambient light only and want to frame the subject to the far left or right, yeah, time to set down the 6d.  So my analysis of the 6d is based on my use, if it were my only FF body I'd most likely find the limitations frustrating, but, it does do what i want it to do quite fine and the mk3 can pick up the slack for what the 6d can't do....
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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #102 on: June 28, 2013, 11:43:18 AM »

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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #103 on: June 28, 2013, 12:38:31 PM »
<sarcasm>Maybe we should just be more lenient with Canon and start comparing the 6d only with 6 year older camera, ignoring the fact that you can get three (3) current Rebel 700d for one (1) 6d :-> ... but sure enough the 6d will do just fine for high contrast objects moving in a predictable straight fashion in the center of the frame like the motor cycle you shot, you'll even only need a singe af point for that.</sarcasm>

But this proves that there are very different ideas what to do with a camera and if €1700 is a good price for what the 6d delivers, and a thread like this should help people sort out if the 6d is a good choice for them.

Obviously Canon did not intend the AF system to be the 6D's main selling point. On my part I'm very happy with a camera that can deliver comparable IQ across a broad range of scenarios with products that are over 1.5 or 3.5 times the price of the 6D --and you don't even get Wi-Fi with those other cameras! ;) Of course, there are plenty of reasons for getting a 5D3 or a 1DX, but Canon didn't number the 6D with a 3 or a 4 either.

My sincere thanks to all the naysayers for whatever part you played in lowering the price of the 6D so quickly. I was very happy buying mine for $1700 back in March and my lens line-up has also benefited from this. I can see not feeling the same way if the price were €1700.
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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2013, 01:25:08 PM »

Don't forget those already on FF that need a decent backup body!  the 6d is a fine companion to the 5d3!  I probably wouldn't be complimenting the 6d as much if that was my only FF body, because I can use the 6d up until i hit the wall of its features (IE, if i am shooting wide open on a prime lens in the sun, yeah, it may be time to set the 6d down and pick up the mk3 because I may need to go over 1/4000th.  If i am shooting at a wedding, reception, dancing, I may want to switch to the mk3 for fast moving dancing, because the servo mode is not so good.  If i am in low light, using ambient light only and want to frame the subject to the far left or right, yeah, time to set down the 6d.  So my analysis of the 6d is based on my use, if it were my only FF body I'd most likely find the limitations frustrating, but, it does do what i want it to do quite fine and the mk3 can pick up the slack for what the 6d can't do....

+100 ... well said Chuck!
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Re: What do you NOT like about the Canon 6D?
« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2013, 01:25:08 PM »