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Author Topic: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?  (Read 55916 times)

jrista

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2013, 11:50:33 PM »
No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!

Don't underestimate Canon's ability and willingness to handicap cameras.  ;) 

*sigh* Sometimes I hate it when your right... (Of course, you, owning the top of the line 1D X, have it all already! :P)

24 MP with Dual Pixel CMOS AF (so they can later pass the 20 MP version to the Rebel/xxxD line and the M, then the 24 MP to the 80D), better AF but not 5DIII/1D X (say 31 AF points, each column on the 7D AF with an extra top/bottom point, but no more columns).  Spot and Zone AF (yes, Virginia, they really left those out of the 70D so, like Santa Claus, they could give them back with the 7DII).  Extras like direct RF control of the -RT Speedlites (a cool, hype-able new feature that oh-by-the-way would boost Speedlite sales).  Just sayin'...

If it is 31pt AF that functions (precision, accuracy, consistency, speed) like the 5D III's 61pt AF, then I would be happy with that. I guess I would prefer a full high density reticulated AF system...I've found the 7D points, while large, still seem to have problems at the periphery of any given point (outside the box) and when the subject is directly between points. Tighter point spacing would help, I think. I'd love it if such a hypothetical 31pt system had the same kind of ultra high precision center vertical column of points like the 61pt system as well...but maybe that is asking Canon for too much.

(Although, given my more recent troubles with the 7Ds AF system...I am beginning to think it is just time to move to the 5D III and get into the FF game. The higher SNR and more accurate AF, even if it has lower spatial resolution than the 7D, should still do wonders for IQ... In which case, I really couldn't care less what the 7D II gets...)

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2013, 11:50:33 PM »

pj1974

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #151 on: July 29, 2013, 11:58:55 PM »
No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!

Don't underestimate Canon's ability and willingness to handicap cameras.  ;)  24 MP with Dual Pixel CMOS AF (so they can later pass the 20 MP version to the Rebel/xxxD line and the M, then the 24 MP to the 80D), better AF but not 5DIII/1D X (say 31 AF points, each column on the 7D AF with an extra top/bottom point, but no more columns).  Spot and Zone AF (yes, Virginia, they really left those out of the 70D so, like Santa Claus, they could give them back with the 7DII).  Extras like direct RF control of the -RT Speedlites (a cool, hype-able new feature that oh-by-the-way would boost Speedlite sales).  Just sayin'...

Indeed, Canon has a history where it's handicapped cameras, particularly via firmware limitations, and/or some improvements that could have been incorporated (at not too much cost). Some examples spring to mind: 400D, 30D, 60D, etc.

The 7D came out and I thought Canon were being 'generous' with the feature list - and I still think they were. I love my 7D - though I'm aware there could have been some improvements made.... but I chose it early - and haven't looked back.

I do wonder if the 'groundbreaking' rumours we started hearing some time ago that would be in the 7DmkII is actually the dual pixel AF of the 70D? (ie if 'the rumour spreaders' had the Canon body model name / number wrong?)

The 70D's ISO ability looks close, and probably a bit superior to Canon's previous APS-C 18MP sensors. But it's not 'ground-breakingly' better.  I would be surprised if there is a significantly better new sensor (still APS-C) in the 7DmkII (which I believe is already close to final production). I do expect the 7DmkII to maybe have a different sensor to the 70D. If it does, I hope it's somewhat better on ISO than the 7D. (I don't need more than 18MP btw).

I believe the main features separating the 7DmkII - from both the 7D and 70D - will include:
 - feature set, such as GPS, wireless, remote flash control
 - FPS (eg 10?)
 - build quality & shutter durability
 - improved optical AF (as the 70D has the 7D's AF, the 7DmkII will have improvements in that space)
 - an articulated screen (the 7D's is 'fixed')
 - probably improved LiveView AF too.... ie even faster, better implemented dual pixel AF than the 70D has

Looking forward to what the 7DmkII will be.  I must say I'm impressed with what Canon has done with the 70D, and I will probably go to a store and try one (instore) out of curiousity!

Paul
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Marsu42

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #152 on: July 30, 2013, 03:56:06 AM »
Oh, look, it's good ol' Paul in [CR] dream land :-> (no, really, I think your posts are among the most valuable here):

- feature set, such as GPS, wireless, remote flash control

... my 2ct: built-in rt controller won't happen unless Yongnuo has a built-in radio speedlite system (not yet) and even then Canon would have to forced at gunpoint to give up $500 sales for a 600rt as a master. The idea is that enthusiasts are ok with optical fallback control via the pop up flash, and if you venture further into flash photography you just have to cough up the $$$ to be able to use the nice 600rt display or the in-camera rt control rather than some awkward 3rd party external controller.

I also don't see gps in a pro/sturdy body, of course it could be done but it's rather an amateur feature given the advantages of external loggers and Canon would admit they'd just left out the 6d flash and gps from the 70d for marketing and no real tech reason.

- as the 70D has the 7D's AF, the 7DmkII will have improvements in that space

... not quite, this is a spec sheet fallacy: the 70d af system has just the same number of af points, knowing Canon I doubt they'll confuse simple xxd customers with too much customization in the fw plus lacking a dedicated af processor it might well be the 70d is slower & has worse tracking than the 7d1!

- an articulated screen (the 7D's is 'fixed')

... but that would half the number of potential 7d2 customers after years of dogmatism that a swivel screen isn't "pro", cannot be properly sealed and will break off the camera just by looking at it :-> ... as a 60d owner though, I know how handy that is for video, tripod & awkward angles.

whothafunk

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #153 on: July 30, 2013, 04:22:20 AM »
how do you know 70D lacks dedicated AF processor? canon didnt say that 70D doesnt have one, neither that it does. when 7D was announced, they didnt mention dedicated AF processor either, noone knew it has one until it was released
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 04:37:58 AM by whothafunk »
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paul13walnut5

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #154 on: July 30, 2013, 04:30:03 AM »
how do you know 70D lacks dedicated AF processor? canon didnt say they 70D doesnt have it, neither that it does. when 7D was announced, they didnt mention dedicated AF processor either, noone knew it has one until it was released

The most valid thing I've read on this thread so far.

Nobody knows until it is released.

Chosenbydestiny

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #155 on: July 30, 2013, 04:44:24 AM »
What I don't get is why it would need a dedicated processor when the digic 5+ is said to be 17x faster than digic 4. Still very much noticeably faster than dual digic 4. I know it's more megapixels, but wouldn't that at least shoulder the performance loss from lacking a dedicated processor?
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Marsu42

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #156 on: July 30, 2013, 04:55:20 AM »
What I don't get is why it would need a dedicated processor when the digic 5+ is said to be 17x faster than digic 4. Still very much noticeably faster than dual digic 4. I know it's more megapixels, but wouldn't that at least shoulder the performance loss from lacking a dedicated processor?

You're all correct - we don't know for sure, but then again this is a rumor forum :->

The smaller 70d size vs. 7d1 might indicate that they've only got one cpu on the pcb ... but I personally also think that the digic5 could take the af load, question is if the fw is meant to use it, after all as written above Canon has a history of crippling lesser camera bodies. In every case I'm doubtful if the fw has as many tracking options as the 7d1, but we'll see...

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #156 on: July 30, 2013, 04:55:20 AM »

paul13walnut5

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #157 on: July 30, 2013, 05:12:26 AM »
What I don't get is why it would need a dedicated processor when the digic 5+ is said to be 17x faster than digic 4. Still very much noticeably faster than dual digic 4. I know it's more megapixels, but wouldn't that at least shoulder the performance loss from lacking a dedicated processor?

Faster than dual digic 4 perhaps, but on the 7D the dual digics process the data from the image chip.

There is a third, seperate processor that deals exclusively with AF.

It is not clear if the 70D has or needs this.  Certainly the 5D3 has a seperate (although unspecified, unless anybody can cast some light on it) processor exclusively for AF, and it also has a main digic 5+ image processor.  Granted it's a much more sophisticated AF system, but it hints that a digic 5+ on it's own wasn't sufficient.

It's all conjecture.  But when it comes to AF performance, it rather appears that no matter the image processing, a seperate AF processor is desirable.

whothafunk

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #158 on: July 30, 2013, 05:38:18 AM »
the 5D3 does have a dedicated AF processor, like the 7D and the 1Dx. thats why these cameras have superior AF.

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do

if you expand the AF section, about half way down:
Quote
Achieving this speed and accuracy in the AF algorithm requires a large amount of focus data to be processed quickly. This has been done by the use of distributed processing where both a dedicated AF processor and a camera CPU process data. The dedicated AF processor is four times faster than the one found in the EOS-1D Mark IV.

'a camera CPU' must refer to the sole DIGIC5+.
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tron

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #159 on: July 30, 2013, 08:42:50 AM »
the 5D3 does have a dedicated AF processor, like the 7D and the 1Dx. thats why these cameras have superior AF.

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do

if you expand the AF section, about half way down:
Quote
Achieving this speed and accuracy in the AF algorithm requires a large amount of focus data to be processed quickly. This has been done by the use of distributed processing where both a dedicated AF processor and a camera CPU process data. The dedicated AF processor is four times faster than the one found in the EOS-1D Mark IV.

'a camera CPU' must refer to the sole DIGIC5+.
Thanks for the link. Really interesting info although some of it seems , let's say: a little "optimistic"
Quote
The camera also features a robust dust-proof and drip-proof construction, where body panels interlock rather than adjoin, and all seams, buttons and dials are provided with secure rubber sealing. The protection provided by the design and sealing is equivalent to that of the EOS-1N film camera; the weather-sealing standard by which other professional cameras were judged.

carlosmeldano

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #160 on: July 30, 2013, 12:23:12 PM »
the 5D3 does have a dedicated AF processor, like the 7D and the 1Dx. thats why these cameras have superior AF.

the 70D indeed has at least one dedicated AF processor... for CMOS AF.

check the interview here: http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2013/eos_70d_interview_with_developers.shtml, page 4, top of right column.

Miyanari: “With the AF signal of Dual Pixel CMOS AF, there was twice the amount of information as the number of effective pixels that lined the sensor. This process could be performed with just the imaging processor; however, we believed it would be too much to ask, so a dedicated IC was developed. By establishing an IC for the role of preparation so the imaging processor could process one after the other, high-speed, optimized processing was made possible."


so, the digic 5+ is capable of handling such that computing capacity, I don't think that a separate AF processor should be used, but if they use one for CMOS AF, they might applied the other for the conventional AF.

neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #161 on: July 30, 2013, 02:06:44 PM »
Oh, look, it's good ol' Paul in [CR] dream land :-> (no, really, I think your posts are among the most valuable here):

- feature set, such as GPS, wireless, remote flash control

... my 2ct: built-in rt controller won't happen unless Yongnuo has a built-in radio speedlite system (not yet) and even then Canon would have to forced at gunpoint to give up $500 sales for a 600rt as a master. The idea is that enthusiasts are ok with optical fallback control via the pop up flash, and if you venture further into flash photography you just have to cough up the $$$ to be able to use the nice 600rt display or the in-camera rt control rather than some awkward 3rd party external controller.

Ok, except in the days before thr -RT system came out, there was only optical control...while Canon started Master capability with the popup flash in the 7D, they rolled it down to the xxD line and eventually put capability in a Rebel body. 

I bet we'll see RT master in the 7DII...
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shtfmeister

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #162 on: July 30, 2013, 03:40:22 PM »
One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.

I would think a better AF system would probably also be part of the differentiation. More FPS and better AF along with a competitive increase in MP would be the ideal differentiation to me. I don't think an integrated grip or better weather sealing or 1D X style buttons or anything like that are necessary to make an appropriate differentiation. The 19pt AF system definitely has its issues, though...and I would happily skip the 7D II if it ended up with the same 19pt system the original 7D had. It misfocuses too many times in any given sequence, roughly negating the additional 2fps lead it has over the 5D III.

It doesn't necessarily need to get the 61pt AF system, but something of the same precision, consistency, and accuracy of the 5D III's system would be a key differentiator for reach-hungry shooters looking for a companion to their FF.

before you hate on the 19pt auto focus to much which lenses are you using
read this http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-3a-canon-lenses
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 06:02:32 PM by shtfmeister »

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #162 on: July 30, 2013, 03:40:22 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #163 on: July 30, 2013, 07:06:25 PM »
I bet we'll see RT master in the 7DII...

I'll bookmark this and remind you :-p ... I'm sure Canon will add rt master capability sometime, but I bet this won't be the sports/high-fps 7d2 (can your flash do 10fps?) but the 5d4 or the next high-mp premium 1d.

Think of the profit they make: the st-e3 controller sells for ~€300, but most likely consists of parts that you can buy for less than €30 in the electronics discount shop next door :-o

jrista

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #164 on: July 30, 2013, 07:52:24 PM »
One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.

I would think a better AF system would probably also be part of the differentiation. More FPS and better AF along with a competitive increase in MP would be the ideal differentiation to me. I don't think an integrated grip or better weather sealing or 1D X style buttons or anything like that are necessary to make an appropriate differentiation. The 19pt AF system definitely has its issues, though...and I would happily skip the 7D II if it ended up with the same 19pt system the original 7D had. It misfocuses too many times in any given sequence, roughly negating the additional 2fps lead it has over the 5D III.

It doesn't necessarily need to get the 61pt AF system, but something of the same precision, consistency, and accuracy of the 5D III's system would be a key differentiator for reach-hungry shooters looking for a companion to their FF.

before you hate on the 19pt auto focus to much which lenses are you using
read this http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-3a-canon-lenses

LOL. Its not the lens. I am using the EF 600mm f/4 L IS II...can't get much better than that.

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Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #164 on: July 30, 2013, 07:52:24 PM »