October 20, 2014, 09:22:09 PM

Author Topic: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?  (Read 54351 times)

tron

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1859
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2013, 09:36:16 AM »
Where exactly was stated or who said, that 70D will set a new benchmark for High ISO? ..

Maybe this:

"The EOS 70D sensor has been manufactured using new materials in the colour filter, which enables the camera to achieve higher light transmittance. When combined with improved transistors inside the pixels, the EOS 70D is able to shoot at higher ISO speeds than previous models, whilst ensuring advanced image quality."

http://www.eos-magazine.com/EOS%20digital%20cameras/EOS%20system/Digital%20cameras/EOS%2070D/eos70d.html
This is a rather vague description. It doesn't say anything specific.

For example: Raw files, ISO xxx of 70D = Raw files ISO yyy of another Canon camera

Anything else is marketing BS!

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2013, 09:36:16 AM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14708
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2013, 09:48:30 AM »
Where exactly was stated or who said, that 70D will set a new benchmark for High ISO? ..

Maybe this:

"The EOS 70D sensor has been manufactured using new materials in the colour filter, which enables the camera to achieve higher light transmittance. When combined with improved transistors inside the pixels, the EOS 70D is able to shoot at higher ISO speeds than previous models, whilst ensuring advanced image quality."

http://www.eos-magazine.com/EOS%20digital%20cameras/EOS%20system/Digital%20cameras/EOS%2070D/eos70d.html
This is a rather vague description. It doesn't say anything specific.

For example: Raw files, ISO xxx of 70D = Raw files ISO yyy of another Canon camera

Anything else is marketing BS!

Au contraire...it's quite specific, and unassailable truth. Let's break it down:

1) new CFA materials with higher transmittance, and new circuitry - ok, we have to take Canon's word on that, but why would they lie?  And if the new CFA materials lower production costs and just happen to have higher transmittance as a side effect, that's all good.

2) the 70D is able to shoot at higher ISOs than previous models - it's spec is 100-12800 with one stop expanded, and the 60D is 100-6400 with one stop expanded, so that's true

3) it has advanced IQ - can be said of all current dSLRs, so that's true as well

See, that's the essence of marketing speak - be very specific and make accurate statements, whilst not really saying anything meaningful.

BS by any other name...   ::)
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

tron

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1859
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2013, 09:53:12 AM »
Where exactly was stated or who said, that 70D will set a new benchmark for High ISO? ..

Maybe this:

"The EOS 70D sensor has been manufactured using new materials in the colour filter, which enables the camera to achieve higher light transmittance. When combined with improved transistors inside the pixels, the EOS 70D is able to shoot at higher ISO speeds than previous models, whilst ensuring advanced image quality."

http://www.eos-magazine.com/EOS%20digital%20cameras/EOS%20system/Digital%20cameras/EOS%2070D/eos70d.html
This is a rather vague description. It doesn't say anything specific.

For example: Raw files, ISO xxx of 70D = Raw files ISO yyy of another Canon camera

Anything else is marketing BS!

Au contraire...it's quite specific, and unassailable truth. Let's break it down:

1) new CFA materials with higher transmittance, and new circuitry - ok, we have to take Canon's word on that, but why would they lie?  And if the new CFA materials lower production costs and just happen to have higher transmittance as a side effect, that's all good.

2) the 70D is able to shoot at higher ISOs than previous models - it's spec is 100-12800 with one stop expanded, and the 60D is 100-6400 with one stop expanded, so that's true

3) it has advanced IQ - can be said of all current dSLRs, so that's true as well

See, that's the essence of marketing speak - be very specific and make accurate statements, whilst not really saying anything meaningful.

BS by any other name...   ::)
I am talking about ISO which is this thread's title.

Are we sure that Raw ISO 12800 performance of 70D = Raw ISO 6400 performance of 60D for example?

This is only the part I was criticizing and yes improved ISO performance is good for all of us so I do wish there will be. It is just that I will have to see something concrete to believe it...

« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 10:10:59 AM by tron »

Normalnorm

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2013, 10:03:25 AM »
As has been said before, the introduction of the 70D is very exciting, particularly the clues it offers to the upcoming 7D2. Remember, canon said the 7D2 will be "ground breaking", not the 70D.... So whatever happens with the 70D is not " groundbreaking"...

I'm not going to pin too much hope on the "groundbreaking." I suspect that for competitive reasons Canon elected to announce the 70D before the 7DII since Nikon has been dragging their feet on the D300S replacement. I expect the two bodies to share the same sensor.

If this new sensor offers a stop or two improvement in noise and they couple that with a 5DIII-style autofocus, dual card slots, the same or better frame rate, retain the joystick and other controls and beef up the weathersealing, it will be one heck of a camera and they'll get my money.

IMO the "groundbreaking" aspect of the 7D2 will be an EVF.

whothafunk

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2013, 11:10:15 AM »
Quote
We couldn’t put a card in the camera because it is a pre-production unit. With that said, we were told to expect comparable ISO performance with the 7D and better color due to the new pixel structure.

http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/07/02/first-impressions-canon-70d/

quite a bummer, but I guess expectable?

Quote
There isn’t much in terms of controls here, but you should note that there is an AF assist beam, lens release, and the shutter button.

I stopped reading that "preview" when I saw that line. Lulz.  :P Obvious non Canon DSLR user 2 weeks ago...
I didn't go through the whole preview, just the ISO part as this link and the quote was posted on POTN forum. I just forward it here, as it was the only source (rumor) saying something about the ISO. Nothing wrong with that, since CRumors welcomes all rumors they can get, no?
Canon 70D -- Canon 550D -- Canon 8-15L f4 Fisheye USM -- Canon 70-200L f2.8 IS USM II -- Canon 17-55 f2.8 IS USM

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14708
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2013, 11:15:13 AM »
@ tron - sorry, I forgot to append the <sarcasm> tags...   ;)
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

x-vision

  • Canon 7D MK II
  • *****
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2013, 01:40:54 PM »
IMO the "groundbreaking" aspect of the 7D2 will be an EVF.

Canon never said groundbreaking, actually.
In a January interview, Canon's camera boss said that 7DII will evolve in new territory.
English in not my first language but I sense a difference between 'evolve' and 'groundbreaking'  8).

The thing to consider is that if the 7DII just gets the new 70D sensor, it has already evolved in new territory - due to the expended AF system abilities for video.

My hope is that the 70D will use a sensor with better ISO capabilities than the 70D - even if this means reducing the number of MPs compared to the 70D.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2013, 01:40:54 PM »

K-amps

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1520
  • Whatever looks great !
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2013, 02:44:16 PM »
When do we get to see RAW footage?
EOS-5D Mk.iii 
Sigma 24-105mm F4 ART; EF 70-200 F/2.8L Mk.II; EF 85mm L F/1.2 Mk. II; EF 100mm L F/2.8 IS Macro, 50mm F/1.8ii;  TC's 2x Mk.iii; 1.4x Mk.iii

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4811
  • ML-66d / 100L / 70-300L / 17-40L / 600rts
    • View Profile
    • 6D positive spec list
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2013, 04:53:33 PM »
the 70D is able to shoot at higher ISOs than previous models - it's spec is 100-12800 with one stop expanded, and the 60D is 100-6400 with one stop expanded, so that's true

The highest real analog iso setting on the 18mp crop sensors is 3200, everything above is digitally pushed, and even worse the amplification noise for 6400 is so high it's better to underexpose at 3200. Intermediary and pushed isos are fine for jpeg and video, but for raw the analog choices are 100/200/400/800/1600/3200.

So the question about the 70d is if an expanded iso range actually means higher "real" analog sensor iso settings, or if it's a marketing/digital make-believe.

If the 7D Mark II hit the market, the price you pay for a 5D Mark III or 6D is absolutely a shame compared to the possibilities of the new 7D Mark II. Not every hobby photographers needs a FF camera.

I'm ready to believe this for the 6d in an instant, but if the 7d2 will really be a crop 5d3 plus even more features at a reasonable price then this will be the model that redeems Canon from all past under-speced or high-priced blunders.

AvTvM

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1017
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2013, 04:49:36 AM »
The highest real analog iso setting on the 18mp crop sensors is 3200, everything above is digitally pushed,

do you have a source for this, please? Thanks!

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4811
  • ML-66d / 100L / 70-300L / 17-40L / 600rts
    • View Profile
    • 6D positive spec list
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2013, 06:28:13 AM »
The highest real analog iso setting on the 18mp crop sensors is 3200, everything above is digitally pushed,
do you have a source for this, please? Thanks!

There are multiple threads on the Magic Lantern forum, last one with some in-depth graphs from a guy called AudioNut, unfortunately I haven't bookmarked it so you have to look for yourself: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/

The information and another thread is also here (under "Is ISO 6400 digitally pushed?"): http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/ISO

AvTvM

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1017
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2013, 06:48:31 AM »
The highest real analog iso setting on the 18mp crop sensors is 3200, everything above is digitally pushed,
do you have a source for this, please? Thanks!

There are multiple threads on the Magic Lantern forum, last one with some in-depth graphs from a guy called AudioNut, unfortunately I haven't bookmarked it so you have to look for yourself: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/

The information and another thread is also here (under "Is ISO 6400 digitally pushed?"): http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/ISO

Thanks.
While this may be the case for video and jpg output out of camera, I doubt it for stills, captured in RAW. But I have never really looked into it myself.
Personally with my 7D I always and solely capture RAW, use only multiples of ISO 100 and go up to 3200 .. .and get good or at least acceptable results ... for my level of expectation. :-)

rpt

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2218
  • Could not wait for 7D2 so I got the 5D3
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2013, 06:54:49 AM »
Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.

 :D
ROFL!
Neuro, you are too much! Brilliant! However, do you really want to DRive the DR DRama onwards? I'D Rather DRop it.
 ;)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2013, 06:54:49 AM »

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4811
  • ML-66d / 100L / 70-300L / 17-40L / 600rts
    • View Profile
    • 6D positive spec list
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #88 on: July 04, 2013, 06:57:48 AM »
While this may be the case for video and jpg output out of camera, I doubt it for stills, captured in RAW. But I have never really looked into it myself.

It esp. applies to raw - the data is just shifted around using a higher bv, look for the graphs in the ml forum that demonstrate this and also show that iso 6400 in raw is worse then underexposing 3200 and properly raising in post ... unfortunately I had to learn this the hard way, wondering why iso 1000 looks sooooo much worse than 800 :-(

cookinghusband

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2013, 10:20:07 PM »
a 70D doing better than 6D in ISO performance is all possible.
Just like a 6 cylinder car out doing a 8 cylinder car of the same engine capacity because they have new technology applied. but when then new tech is apply to the 8 cylinder engine it will over come again.

So APS-c do better than FF for a while, then FF improve again.


canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2013, 10:20:07 PM »