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Author Topic: An article Canon should read.  (Read 26025 times)

gmrza

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 07:56:12 PM »
....

If in the future, Nikon or Sony even had 1/2 the vision of Apple (which I doubt they ever will), Canon in all their conservatism would fall like a house of cards, just like what Apple has done to their numerous competitors.

Time to play devil's advocate...

  • With the AE-1 Canon led the charge to mass-market adoption of SLRs.  Supposedly the AE-1 was the first camera with an embedded microcontroller.
  • Canon introduced the world's first inkjet printer.
  • Didn't Canon lead the market to the adoption of a full electronic lens interface?  (EOS 650 and EF lens mount in 1987)
  • Canon led the market for full frame studio professional DSLRs with the 1Ds.  (It wasn't the first full frame pro DSLR, but it was a major departure in terms of utility.)
  • Wasn't Canon the first company to market an enthusiast-level full frame DSLR?  (5D Classic)
  • Wasn't Canon the first to release HD video in a full frame DSLR? (5D mkII)
  • Wasn't Canon the first major camera manufacturer to launch a 70-200mm image stabilised lens?

Canon has made some daring bets -
  • abandoning the FD lens mount and unseating Nikon as the undisputed leader in the pro SLR segment in the process.
  • Cannibalising the market for the 1DsIII with the introduction of the 5DII
I'm sure I have missed a few.

Canon may be managed conservatively, but I don't think we can accuse Canon of not having vision.

Canon has made some innovations which have fallen flat - like the use of a pellicle mirror, or eye-controlled auto-focus.  But Canon has also led some ground-breaking market changes - the AE-1, EOS 650, EOS 300D and EOS 350D immediately come to mind.

I will grant that Canon have not introduced any tectonic shifts in the market place lately, so time will tell whether they might lose the edge on innovation.
As for Canon and Nikon being non-entrants or late entrants (Nikon) into the CSC market - I would contend that that is a market which has not proven itself to have given customers a great product yet.  Nikon seems to be entering that market reluctantly - Canon may too.  Time will tell whether either of them can introduce the "iPad" of that market - to tell the truth, most products in that market at the moment are the equivalent of the Apple Newton.


... Time to don the flame-retardant suit...  ;)
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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 07:56:12 PM »

DJL329

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 09:27:00 PM »
....

If in the future, Nikon or Sony even had 1/2 the vision of Apple (which I doubt they ever will), Canon in all their conservatism would fall like a house of cards, just like what Apple has done to their numerous competitors.

Time to play devil's advocate...

  • With the AE-1 Canon led the charge to mass-market adoption of SLRs.  Supposedly the AE-1 was the first camera with an embedded microcontroller.
  • Canon introduced the world's first inkjet printer.
  • Didn't Canon lead the market to the adoption of a full electronic lens interface?  (EOS 650 and EF lens mount in 1987)
  • Canon led the market for full frame studio professional DSLRs with the 1Ds.  (It wasn't the first full frame pro DSLR, but it was a major departure in terms of utility.)
  • Wasn't Canon the first company to market an enthusiast-level full frame DSLR?  (5D Classic)
  • Wasn't Canon the first to release HD video in a full frame DSLR? (5D mkII)
  • Wasn't Canon the first major camera manufacturer to launch a 70-200mm image stabilised lens?

Canon has made some daring bets -
  • abandoning the FD lens mount and unseating Nikon as the undisputed leader in the pro SLR segment in the process.
  • Cannibalising the market for the 1DsIII with the introduction of the 5DII
I'm sure I have missed a few.

Canon may be managed conservatively, but I don't think we can accuse Canon of not having vision.

Canon has made some innovations which have fallen flat - like the use of a pellicle mirror, or eye-controlled auto-focus.  But Canon has also led some ground-breaking market changes - the AE-1, EOS 650, EOS 300D and EOS 350D immediately come to mind.

I will grant that Canon have not introduced any tectonic shifts in the market place lately, so time will tell whether they might lose the edge on innovation.
As for Canon and Nikon being non-entrants or late entrants (Nikon) into the CSC market - I would contend that that is a market which has not proven itself to have given customers a great product yet.  Nikon seems to be entering that market reluctantly - Canon may too.  Time will tell whether either of them can introduce the "iPad" of that market - to tell the truth, most products in that market at the moment are the equivalent of the Apple Newton.


... Time to don the flame-retardant suit...  ;)

Excellent retort, sir!  (No flames here!  ;D)  Besides, it's not as if Canon hasn't been the industry leader for the past two decades.
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Hillsilly

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2011, 10:52:43 PM »
Apple has combined great products with excellent marketing and now have a very loyal customer base.  As a company, it has done exceptionally well over the last 15 years.  But to ascribe this success to altruistic notions  means you've just been suckered in by their marketing.  Apple is a profit making beast, just like every other large company.  Its just that Apple is a "cooler" brand than most of its competitors.

An interesting article about Apple that has been popular is Australia for the last few days...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/apple-cult-really-makes-me-shudder/story-e6frg6ux-1226123118856

The other thing is that it generally doesn't matter who is first to market with something.  What matters is how well you implement it.  I think it is generally accepted that Apple products aren't entirely new inventions.  But they've hade some top people who have figured out how to make things work better.  If there is a lesson to learn from Apple it is that you can't ignore new advances, better ideas for usability and ergonomics, better menu layouts and integrating new technologies.
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Dave

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2011, 10:56:38 PM »
If canon would be like apple...
...there would be just ONE dslr and ONE compact model with a new release every year
...it would cost twice as much as every other cam
...there would be no USB connector. the only way to get your photos from your cam is to use a proprietary software - from canon
...there wouldn't be any memory cards either. You'd have to decide if you want to buy a 8, 16 or 32 version of your SLR
...to use your camera you have to activate it first via that particular software
...the batteries would be build in with no way to change it yourself
...there wouldn't be any manual mode anymore because the mass market don't need that
...canon would sue, nikon, sony, panasonic and every other manufacturer who build cams who look like... well, who look like a cam, because canon thinks that it has invented cams
...canon would buy Adobe (for example) would sell the Creative Suite for  just to decide that some functions like auto tone are note needed anymore and have to be kicked out to fit the mass market...

-zero-

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2011, 11:36:46 PM »
If canon would be like apple...
...there would be just ONE dslr and ONE compact model with a new release every year
...it would cost twice as much as every other cam
...there would be no USB connector. the only way to get your photos from your cam is to use a proprietary software - from canon
...there wouldn't be any memory cards either. You'd have to decide if you want to buy a 8, 16 or 32 version of your SLR
...to use your camera you have to activate it first via that particular software
...the batteries would be build in with no way to change it yourself
...there wouldn't be any manual mode anymore because the mass market don't need that
...canon would sue, nikon, sony, panasonic and every other manufacturer who build cams who look like... well, who look like a cam, because canon thinks that it has invented cams
...canon would buy Adobe (for example) would sell the Creative Suite for  just to decide that some functions like auto tone are note needed anymore and have to be kicked out to fit the mass market...

I want to stay away from the Apple love/hate argument but,

why does that sound absolutely unacceptable on a camera but most people accept it for their smartphone?

Bruce Photography

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2011, 11:40:31 PM »
I've been watching the IPhone and the IPad frenzy lately and I finally got up my courage to ask a few questions about the IPad with an eye toward downloading photos for viewing (daily shoots) and for connection to a live camera to use it as a monitor for my cameras out in the field.  When I say "the field", I mean forrest or sea coast or other minimally habitated area.  Read few or non-existant cell towers.  Yes I know everyones needs are different.  However here is what I asked the Ipad user at Starbucks:

1. Where is the Compact Flash port? How about the SD port?
2. Where can you hook up an external hard drive?
3. How many apps can you run without being connected to the Internet?
4. How many apps can you load into a 64gb machine? 
5. I often shoot more than 32GB of photos in a day, how do I down load them in the field without the Internet?
6. If I can do it without being connected, how long would they take to download and how would I do it?
7. Do programs and data have to share the meager 64GB of ram?  What happens when I shoot more than 64GB?
8. Does CS5 and adobe camera raw work on an Ipad?  Does Lightroom?
9. Where can I wire in my camera so I could use the Ipad as a Monitor?  Simple to do on a laptop - any laptop.

These are just off the top of my head.  I waited to hear answers to my enquires but I'm still waiting.....


Perhaps someone else knows.

hhelmbold

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2011, 12:38:17 AM »
Quote
I've been watching the IPhone and the IPad frenzy lately and I finally got up my courage to ask a few questions about the IPad with an eye toward downloading photos for viewing (daily shoots) and for connection to a live camera to use it as a monitor for my cameras out in the field.  When I say "the field", I mean forrest or sea coast or other minimally habitated area.  Read few or non-existant cell towers.  Yes I know everyones needs are different.  However here is what I asked the Ipad user at Starbucks:

I think there is a time and place for everything. From what I gather your use will be in remote areas where there is no internet and will there be power?

The iPad is great for certain uses and really falls short on others, it's not to say that it cannot do what you want. But it is definately not made to run applications like Adobe CS5. You can buy an external camera connection kit for the iPad which is basically a SD card reader and a USB port where you can connect your camera straight to the iPad to download the photos - BUT it doesn't allow you to connect an external HDD. You need to jailbreak the iPad to get this feature. Looking at your need I would say the iPad is not for you...

I wanted to do the same thing, except I have access to power to keep the battery charged. I also travel a lot and wanted to be able to actually edit my photos while flying. I bought myself the ASUS E121 Slate (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/buy/asus-eee-slate-121.aspx) and I am REALLY happy with it. It is more like a laptop and looks like an iPad.

The only negatives I have at the moment is
1) Battery life - for photo editing about 1.5 - 2 hours (It's a full PC, so it is power hungry and I can understand the battery life)
2) Limited to 4GB of RAM
3) WiFi coverage can be poor at times, not sure if it is interferance
4) Is quite heavy because of the tough glass

But I shoot tethered with my camera, edit photos in Photoshop, display photos to clients, take notes... anything I can do on my Workstation, I can do on the tablet. I bought a 64GB SD card which I leave in the tablet as an extended HDD, and I can connect an additional HDD if I wish (has 2 USB ports)

I was very sceptical at first because everyone compares this to the iPad, but you need to know that these 2 tablets fall in 2 very different categories. I know it sounds like I am promoting the ASUS tablet, but I am just giving you what I decided on after doing a lot of homework on tablets. I do believe that we will see a boom in the tablet market from next year when Windows 8 is launched. I also won't be surprised if Apple launches something between the iPad and the MacBook, maybe a MacPAd or something :)

Hope this helps a bit...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 01:02:51 AM by hhelmbold »

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2011, 12:38:17 AM »

DJL329

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2011, 12:42:22 AM »

For all you Apple haters responding here; (a) you need to get your facts straight...

You want facts?  Okay, here goes:

The Mac GUI was lifted from the Xerox Parc (so much for it being "original").

No other company tries to control what you can and cannot do with your software and hardware (so much for it being "open source").   This is one of the major reasons why Windows runs on the majority of business computers.  The other being, of course, that Microsoft doesn't care which hardware you run it on.


Quote
  Cannibalising the market for the 1DsIII with the introduction of the 5DII --- actually, NO; this doesn't cannibalize that market at all; these are for different markets (I don't think you understand build quality, waterproofing, etc.)

Yes, it does.  What you fail to realize is that many professional shooters will forgo the build quality, waterproofing, etc. and choose the 5DII because the sensor is essentially the same at less than half the cost.  Sport and wildlife shooters are usually the ones who need the waterproofing, and they use the 1D line (1.3x crop), not the 1Ds.

Oh, and "leading" and being "first" are 2 different things.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 01:15:44 AM by DJL329 »
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Sunnystate

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2011, 01:04:25 AM »
Fascinating!
All kind of crawlers are coming out from under rocks to beat the drums against Apple.
Apple story is about the battle of true talent, genius and visionary against nepotism, establishment, cliques, and elitism in business.
If the critics only were sure that Jobs days are really counted! Unfortunately they still have to be wary that he just may stay alive and active long enough to influence Apple and eventually destroy couple more industries, yes just like photography.

It really is time to start investing in people that know how to create, innovate and deliver, especially in recent economy.
Your beloved "chosen" guy, with yellow arm pits will not cut it anymore, even with the help of industry giants like IBM and every lawyer in the family, to satisfy demands of the world.
It is time to just get over it, accept and use the lessons to make better things in the future, starting with replacing those well educated, soft spoken, but really dull characters from privileged circles as leaders.
Think for the moment and imagine where could we be if every company was as successful and innovative as Apple, what level of competition will be created in all industries, and what kind of inventions will be already here for everybody to enjoy.


« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 01:19:06 AM by Sunnystate »

hhelmbold

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2011, 01:04:50 AM »
Quote
Oh, and "leading" and being "first" are 2 different things

Yes... the one means you're finished :D

Bruce Photography

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2011, 02:04:30 AM »
For Hhelmbold:  Thank you for really providing a true answer to my potential usage of a tablet.  I will look into the Asus.  For now, it seems that my Laptop will probably be ok.  As far as a field monitor I've considered the Marshall field monitors as well as a new one from Adorama.  Power would be a problem but maybe one of the solar solutions would be practical or I could just carry another battery.  I was attracted to the iPad because of the long battery life.  I just don't understand why they didn't put ports on the ipad - seems like they were just trying to save money not to have at least a USB port so you could attach devices.  I guess you could save alot of software development costs if you never supported any devices (other than what is inside the machine).  No need for device drivers - what a savings...  Now where was my pencil?

Peter Hill

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2011, 02:30:36 AM »
I'm not about to dive in and join the debaters about Canon vs Apple. I just cannot accept that a business model that apparently works for a big American company making phones and computers is deemed suitable for a big Japanese company making photographic equipment because they are both ..... companies? For starters, has anyone ever been to a Canon store? No!

ZeuZ

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2011, 03:24:58 AM »
I'm not about to dive in and join the debaters about Canon vs Apple. I just cannot accept that a business model that apparently works for a big American company making phones and computers is deemed suitable for a big Japanese company making photographic equipment because they are both ..... companies? For starters, has anyone ever been to a Canon store? No!

Actually here in Belgium there is one : canonline.be, the only photography store which sells only Canon.

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2011, 03:24:58 AM »

hhelmbold

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2011, 09:02:07 AM »
I see this has become an issue of attacking people rather than discussing a plain comment... Maybe archangelrichard needs to apply for a name change.

Sure, some of the questions might seem stupid to YOU but only because you have actual knowledge of the product. Some people actually ask questions to gain that knowledge and blasting them from a dizzy height only proves one thing... your own ignorance.
Some people know how to use a camera and that is all they are concerned with. Unfortunately they have to step into the world of computers and apples to get their final product out, and I think they have more guts trying the unknown than just leaving their work at a point of comfort.


To respond to Bruce
Quote
I was attracted to the iPad because of the long battery life.  I just don't understand why they didn't put ports on the ipad - seems like they were just trying to save money not to have at least a USB port so you could attach devices

One of Apple's big marketing strategies was the battery life - but also a practical strategy as the iPad is used for on the go business. Comparing it to a laptop is actually a mistake as it is completely 2 different tools. USB ports provide power to the devices plugged into them and will decrease battery life. The processor on the iPad cannot be compared to the processor in a more powerful laptop for instance. Processors are also power hungry and this is why the ASUS has a much shorter battery life. From what I can gather it sounds to me like you will be much better off with a laptop. The ASUS is basically a laptop without the keyboard - it is a full PC. There are other tablets like the Galaxy etc, but most of these compete with the iPAd and once again you will be stuck on specific apps. Stick to a platform you are used to working on... it might not look as cool as an iPad or tablet, but in the end you know what you get.

macfly

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2011, 09:39:15 AM »
The opening posts are very interesting.

I have long observed the difference between corporations and visionaries, and corporations after their visionaries leave. Ferrari, Ford, Apple, Microsoft, Getty Oil, Standard Oil, Pan Am (on TV now!) the list goes on and on.

In Japan the culture of honoring a founders vision is very different, but none the less that vision is at the core or Honda and Toyota for instance. Canon is part of a much larger industrial conglomerate, and a relatively small part. With the iPhone, iPad and Androids advance into their traditional money making space the writing is on the wall for the p&s camera. All that will be left is the pro-sumer and pro market. This could be bad for us, because it will destroy their camera business, or it could be good for us, because we'll get bundled in with the cine division who make incredible lenses. For sure it'll push prices up, but I'll pay the price for ground breaking quality. If Canon are asleep at the wheel then Sony, Nikon or maybe even Red, an American company founded and run by a visionary, will fill that slot.

Change is happening at a vastly accelerated pace, but since the original EOS 1 Canon have always been the ones defining it. I hope we will see a 1Ds IV shortly that confirms their commitment to visionary change, but if not I'm buying from those that will.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 09:40:57 AM by macfly »

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Re: An article Canon should read.
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2011, 09:39:15 AM »