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Author Topic: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker  (Read 4212 times)

unfocused

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Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« on: July 02, 2013, 11:12:19 AM »
I believe that when Canon first introduced video in the 5DII they were just throwing in a nice little extra feature that didn't cost them anything. I also believe they had no idea how revolutionary it would be and what a demand it would create.

It was a classic case of "disruptive technology" and to their credit Canon quickly saw the potential and has been on a drive to capitalize on that potential more than any other manufacturer.

With the 70D they've taken another giant leap forward in video capabilities for the non-professional and aspiring videographer market. In fact, the 70D seems to offer as many or more upgrades for video use as it does for stills.

Of course it is a smart move. The professional stills market is shrinking. About the only market left is weddings and even that requires videos as well as stills.

In contrast, the internet video market is the fastest growing media market today and it is becoming more professional all the time. Children born today will grow up expecting to be able to watch an endless supply of content on their personal tablets and Canon wants to be making the cameras that most of the content is filmed on.

How do you feel about this? React.
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Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« on: July 02, 2013, 11:12:19 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2013, 11:20:49 AM »
Well, I have a pretty nice dSLR.   ::)  But I don't use it for handheld video and instead, I have a Canon Vixia HF M41 camcorder for that.  I frequently bring both with me.  Obviously, the main reason is the lack of a usable 'camcorder-like' AF in the dSLR. 

Canon's Dual Pixel CMOS AF appears to change that.  I'm not sure if it will get incorporated into the high end dSLRs at some point (it might not - the Hybrid CMOS AF hasn't), but if it does, and the AF performance is as-billed, I'd consider ditching the camcorder and just using the dSLR for video.
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emag

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2013, 11:37:20 AM »
I like the zoom range in my camcorder.  Hard to duplicate that with a dSLR.  I'm not a filmmaker, though, strictly for my own pleasure.

AudioGlenn

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2013, 11:56:14 AM »
Well, I have a pretty nice dSLR.   ::)  But I don't use it for handheld video and instead, I have a Canon Vixia HF M41 camcorder for that.  I frequently bring both with me.  Obviously, the main reason is the lack of a usable 'camcorder-like' AF in the dSLR. 

Canon's Dual Pixel CMOS AF appears to change that.  I'm not sure if it will get incorporated into the high end dSLRs at some point (it might not - the Hybrid CMOS AF hasn't), but if it does, and the AF performance is as-billed, I'd consider ditching the camcorder and just using the dSLR for video.

Had an M41 but sold it.  I do miss the AF though and I have been waiting for a non-rebel with the ability to focus automatically during video.

In response to the op, I think it's a great thing that we have the ability to do video with our DSLRs.  That's what convinced me to get into the DSLR world in the first place.  I didn't realize I'd love the photog stuff just as much!  =o
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TheBadger

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2013, 12:05:35 PM »
My hopes for a better image quality evaporated as soon as I saw the promo vid of the pizza guys. Obviously, they have nothing exciting to show in regards to IQ so they focus on showing how good autofocus is, and video capabilities and touchscreen to focus etc, etc... Which is all good and welcomed, but that was not what I was looking for, I was looking for a photo camera, not a video camera.  I guess this is it, here is where the path splits - DSLRs for video, Mirrorless for pictures.
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Tanja

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 12:11:56 PM »
canon will make a lot of money with this.. personally i donĀ“t care much about video.

but if it keeps canon above water, why complain?

all other camera companys (nikon and leica as exception) are struggeling.

paul13walnut5

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 12:17:46 PM »
Since my EOS 1000n I've had PIC modes, and Canon have yet to make me a sports photographer, portrait photographer or firework photographer, in much the same way that not everybody with a video enabled DSLR will a) use it at all for video b) get beyond the basics.  In fact, we could probably assume as much about the majority of EOS cameras sold with an A mode.

I have yet to handle a 70D so can't comment on how good or bad the new live view AF system is.
What I can say with absolute certainty is that I won't use the new AF for video it no matter how good it is.

Here is the basic problem with video AF:

Stills AF has to have the subject in focus at a single moment.  If you shoot a burst with tracking AF and have a 50% keeper rate, you throw the others away.  Simple. 

Folk see your pics and comment about the sharpness and you feel really chuffed with how well you can set up your camera.  This sounds facetious, it isn't meant to be, I do this when I've my stills hat on.  I feel a pang of pride, in that my Ai-Servo response tweaking has been a success. I'm delighted with my judgement to set the af limiter, and my use of the cross rather than the point or the zone.  Yes I had to climb the hill, be at the event early to get the best spot, to be there, but I'm only kidding myself if I think anything other than that the camera did 90% of the work.  With regards to focus at least.  Look yourself in the mirror and try and tell yourself anything different.

So what's my point?  Video isn't like that.  You can't chuck away the bits the AF missed.  Video is contiguous.  And every frame has the potential to reveal your ineptitiude.  Yeah you can cut, and do mis-en-scene or montage or whatever other film-makers trick, but for the clips you use, you need to be in focus.

A couple of scenarios... you are shooting a horse & rider, they are charging straight towards your very long lens with very shallow depth of field.  What do you focus on and track? The jockey? The horse, the tv car behind the horse, the steward thats just stepped out in front of your camera partly obscuring the horse and rider?  For stills no problem, your Ai-Servo beahaviour is set to temporarily ignore subjects that are much closer than expected, so by the time your steward is out of shot the predictive tracking has done it's job and you pick up where you left off.  AF video?  No no, not a go.  Backwards, forwards, damn damn damn.  Everybody see's it on your 50 inch plasma...  writ large...

There has been video AF around as long as I have been doing video, as a school kid, as a hobby and as a job, and there are only two AF innovations that I regard to be anywhere near useful.

One-touch AF.  Great in a hurry to get a quick pick up shot or to get close enough to FTM adjust.
Focus directon on the Sony VX1000.  A great idea, arrows show you in the viewfinder which way it thinks you should turn the lens to attain focus.  Not blindly relying on AF, not totally relying on your own MF skill, this was a great system, worked well enough with 1/3 chip cameras, don't know how good it would be with APS-C or even full frame.

Another difference.  In stills you can choose your AF point and move your camera around to track your subject.
In video, you cannot, the footage would be horrible to watch.  So you need a fairly static frame, or the moving subject has to be fairly evenly positioned within a fairly static frame of a moving camera.

The only way to do this is to manually focus.  Now there are lots of tricks you can use in video, especially if you have servo zoom parfocal lenses (you start off close where focus is critical and slow zoom out to where you can be much less accurate to account for bumps etc), zone focusing (something of a lost art) and you need the best lenses to do this, that don't breathe, that have end stops, that all turn the same way with even dampening etc.

The STM lenses may well do a smooth job, but the ones I've seen so far have terrible narrow short throw focus rings.  Not tactile. Not smooth.

Finally.  You know at a kids party, which of the kids you are recording.  The camera doesn't.  It's thinking in edges, in contrast, in whats closest to the camera.  If you can get a decent long throw fast aperture lens then with a bit of practise it is fairly easy to track and micro-adjust focus on the fly.

Canon may make video available to all, but not all are going to like it (i cannot do stills and video on the same job, despite using the same camera, lens tripod etc, my head is thinking completely differently. 

And this is before we get to audio.

Video AF might be fine for family stuff, but for serious video use I don't think it will ever get there.  The camera might be quicker once a decision is made, but we are smarter.

Photodesks will use anything these days.  Aspiring photojournalists?  Aspire no more.  Just be happy with a credit, a very modest fee if any and find a day job to pay the bills that doesn't make you too suicidal. 

Aspiring videographers.  It's a different ball game.  A fancy new AF mode is not going to make any photographer a videographer.  There's a bit more to it than that.

I love photography, I am in awe of great photographers because I am aware of my limitations. When it gets to the good amateur level, like club competition winner level, features in AP magazine etc, I don't want to put you guys down, but to attain the same level of competancy with video, you need to be good all the time, you don't have the same scope to fix things in post (for example, video sharpening looks horrible) you need to be on the ball with your white balance, you need to be able to look at a scene and decide on the best wb setting, or which gel combinations to use on what source to even things out.  You need to understand how to place a mic so as not cast a shadow.  You need to know what the line is, and what side of it to be on.

I guess my basic point is this... point and shoot video is going to be no better than point and shoot photography.  Occassionaly you might strike gold.  Usually you'll be in PS or LR doing a bit of work.  Yes in video you make cuts and chuck stuff away, like in stills.  The big difference, and that which video AF is yet to overcome, is to be smooth, always, at 25fps.  And the only way to do that in video, it is my sincere belief, is to take control, particularly of focus.

Sorry for the essay, but you wanted a reaction.


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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 12:17:46 PM »

paul13walnut5

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 12:24:26 PM »

Well, I have a pretty nice dSLR.   ::)  But I don't use it for handheld video and instead, I have a Canon Vixia HF M41 camcorder for that.  I frequently bring both with me.  Obviously, the main reason is the lack of a usable 'camcorder-like' AF in the dSLR. 

Canon's Dual Pixel CMOS AF appears to change that.  I'm not sure if it will get incorporated into the high end dSLRs at some point (it might not - the Hybrid CMOS AF hasn't), but if it does, and the AF performance is as-billed, I'd consider ditching the camcorder and just using the dSLR for video.

The big thing to remember is that the sensor on the vixia is tiny, so inherent depth of field is much larger, with larger heavier lens optics to slew around.  This is why camcorder stuff looks so flat, background, subject and foreground all appear roughly in focus, especially at wide and medium angles.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 05:55:27 AM by paul13walnut5 »

KacperP

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2013, 12:27:55 PM »
DSLR and digital camera use basically the same component types. If you can merge both functionalities, then why not?
It's a tool. You can use it one way or another or both ways. You can - don't have to.
Get over it. Only thing you have to do is to make yourself useful :)

unfocused

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 12:55:52 PM »
DSLR and digital camera use basically the same component types. If you can merge both functionalities, then why not?
It's a tool. You can use it one way or another or both ways. You can - don't have to.
Get over it. Only thing you have to do is to make yourself useful :)

What's your point? Who are you suggesting should "get over it?" Nobody is saying Canon shouldn't include video. If you want to make yourself useful, reserve the drive-by comments for the endless and pointless discussions of Dynamic Range, Shadow Noise, etc. etc.

I'm just trying to foster an intelligent discussion about the future of technology and the future of the marketplace. If you don't want to participate, that's fine.
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Midphase

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 12:57:35 PM »
I believe there is a difference between someone who wants to shoot video, and a filmmaker.

Since the title of this thread specifically uses the word "filmmaker", I'll reply as such.

AF is not particularly appealing to filmmakers, modern filmmaking still relies on manual focus lenses and a good focus puller is truly an artist in her own right. The 70D's new AF features are not likely going to make this model any more desirable to filmmakers than, say a T5i.

Most casual photographers who want to take some vacation videos typically use their smart phones which offer a comparable video quality to many low end camcorders with the added benefit of not needing to carry an extra device.

So who is the 70D for? Mostly still photographers who demand the quality of a DSLR, and want the option of using it occasionally to grab some video with the minimum amount of fuss. I also think that wedding videographers would probably enjoy not having to deal with focusing along with everything else they're preoccupied with.

I'm sure it'll sell well, but this is not going to revolutionize the way Canon cameras are used in filmmaking, nor does it necessarily reflect Canon's commitment to video (Still no 1080p 60fps? Still painfully soft h.264 encoding. Still no headphone output.).

There is something else that's actually revolutionizing the way that Canon cameras are being used to create films, and ironically Canon has nothing to do with it:

http://www.magiclantern.fm

bsbeamer

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 01:09:02 PM »
I'm sure it'll sell well, but this is not going to revolutionize the way Canon cameras are used in filmmaking, nor does it necessarily reflect Canon's commitment to video (Still no 1080p 60fps? Still painfully soft h.264 encoding. Still no headphone output.).

1080p at 60fps would have likely made me an instant buyer.  Even 1080p at 48fps would have been a major step towards instant buyer.  Not sure what the hold up to offering these features really is - I don't believe it's only technical...  I do appreciate the ALL-I recording format, like the 5DMk3 offers. That alone is a significant step of an upgrade compared to the Rebel line.

Midphase

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 01:28:12 PM »
I do appreciate the ALL-I recording format, like the 5DMk3 offers. That alone is a significant step of an upgrade compared to the Rebel line.

You might consider re-thinking that. All-I, in my experience and that of many others, has not produced a noticeably better image quality, nor has it made my editing app feel any snappier.

If you're serious about capturing better video, you might consider saving yourself almost $1000 and looking into a used 50D:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/10507/it-lives-5-year-old-350-canon-50d-becomes-raw-cinema-monster

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 01:28:12 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 01:31:29 PM »
Times are changing my friend...  a decade ago when I got my BA in professional Stills Photography, Still, Motion Picture, and VJ were totally seperate fields... I got an email update from my alumni association saying they have now combined all the programs into one program citing the current everyday professional needs to know stills, VJ AND motion picture as trends are changing and capabilities are changing... 1-2 years ago, professional photographers thought the cinematographers were going to be put out of business with the new technology, now, with the invention of the 4k movie cameras they can take a still grab from anywhere in their video and compete with the photographer.  Times are changing and the playing field is now being equalized and leveled... in the words of Sal Cincotta... innovate or die. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

bsbeamer

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2013, 01:40:52 PM »
I do appreciate the ALL-I recording format, like the 5DMk3 offers. That alone is a significant step of an upgrade compared to the Rebel line.

You might consider re-thinking that. All-I, in my experience and that of many others, has not produced a noticeably better image quality, nor has it made my editing app feel any snappier.

If you're serious about capturing better video, you might consider saving yourself almost $1000 and looking into a used 50D:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/10507/it-lives-5-year-old-350-canon-50d-becomes-raw-cinema-monster

Well aware of the Magic Lantern developments... but if I'm going that route, I'd go with the 5DMk3 - seems to have the greatest set of features on that camera so far, almost making it into a Blackmagic style camera.

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Re: Canon wants to make everyone a filmmaker
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2013, 01:40:52 PM »