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Author Topic: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?  (Read 19963 times)

Don Haines

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2013, 12:42:48 AM »

And one of the advantages of going mirror less is no more need for AFMA. I, for one, will not miss having to calibrate lenses...... And I can certainly live with F11 autofocus.


Why would there be no more need for AFMA?  Did Canon miraculously find a way to eliminate manufacturing variation in lens and body manufacture while I wasn't looking?
In a DSLR, normal focusing is done by diverting light to a focusing sensor. The camera then focuses accurately to this sensor, not the image sensor. If all is perfectly manufactured and aligned, the image is also focused properly for the image sensor, but as we know, with manufacturing tolerances and wear, this is not always true. aFMA calibration is how we correct for this discrepancy.

In live view, focusing is done on the image sensor so there is no second path to correct for.... Therefore, no mirror, no AFMA.
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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2013, 12:42:48 AM »

Dylan777

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2013, 12:47:52 AM »
Dylan, I remember that you had a RX-1 in your signature. Did you trade it for the 2nd 5D3 body? Any feedback on the Rx-1? In a recent overseas trip with my family (I have two young kids), I found the little S100 recorded far more memorable moments than my 5D3 + 24-70II, simply because I pretty much had the S100 on my belt all the time. As much as I appreciate the excellent IQ and fast AF on a DSLR, I have really started to consider eventually switching to compact system with large sensor and great lens.

No, I didn't trade my RX-1 for 2nd 5D III....my wife uses it alot and I doubt she would give it back >:(

RX-1 is an EXCELLENT camera, especially in low light. Here are some low light shots I took around the house. All lights were off, except 7watts sleep lamp that 4yrs daughter holding.

http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/AciN2mE8/1/5955241

If you think S100 has good IQ, wait until you shoot with RX-1 ;)...I love the size of RX-1. I wish Sony could come up RX-2, with same body size as RX-1 or tiny bit bigger is ok, that allows user to swap lenses.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 02:16:13 AM by Dylan777 »
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Don Haines

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2013, 12:54:28 AM »
Concerning optical viewfinders.... I have an SX-50. It has an electronic viewfinder. Although it does not work as well as a optical viewfinder it still works well enough. They will only get better from here.
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alexanderferdinand

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2013, 01:20:57 AM »
@ paul13walnut5: no, the 10 fps from my 1d4 is enough.
It was simply very useful to see what happened, exactly in the moment the picture was taken, like did the flash fire, or were the eyes open.Was a very nice concept.
Yes I know, Sony has some bodies with the semitransparent mirror.
But I am a Canonista for their glasses, and the ergonomics since the T90.....
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Normalnorm

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2013, 01:23:04 AM »
I cannot wait until we lose the mirror and OVF.
I shoot architecture, commercial and events with the occasional wedding.

For architecture I already use Live View with the camera on a tripod so I would appreciate a mirror less with a very large screen that could even be wirelessly linked. For commercial an EVF and flash sync at 1/500 or higher (electronic shutter fantasy) and for events and weddings I would like to be able to "pre-chimp" exposure and WB while working far more quietly. Electronics allow for so much more flexibility in component design and layout that I could imagine a "pro" camera with modular components that would allow the customization of the camera to suit the application. For starters an EVF that could be placed at either the right or left on the main body would be a boon to lefties.

I realize that m43, NEX and Fuji already offer many of these advantages but if Canon offered FF that I can mount my 17TS-E on I would be delighted. I also like the idea of the short flange to sensor distance allowing me to mount (via adapters) a range of legacy lenses.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 01:28:16 AM by Normalnorm »

adhocphotographer

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2013, 01:50:52 AM »
I think the ergonomics of small P&S cameras is not conducive of prolonged use. Yes i think their IQ will improve, but the need for a more comfortable grip/button combo will be needed.

I don't think it will be redundant, but maybe less prevalent, with a lot of amateurs and part-time users preferring the compact version of mirror-less over a DSLR sized one...  a shift in popular trends more than absolute eradication! :)

EDIT: I see the title is whether they will still have mirrors...  I think we will loose them at some point, but i think the form and function of the DSLR will exist. :)
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northbyten

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2013, 03:02:33 AM »
The argument of professional lenses not being able to shrink without compromise is definitely one reason why large DSLRs will be around still.

I wonder how good they can make pancake primes.

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2013, 03:02:33 AM »

tpatana

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2013, 04:21:44 AM »
The argument of professional lenses not being able to shrink without compromise is definitely one reason why large DSLRs will be around still.

You guys are stuck on the fact that current mirrorless cameras are smaller than current DSLRs.

Of course if there was pro-level mirrorless which is supposed to handle anything from ~10mm .... 600F4LIS, the body size must be similar to today DSLR bodies. If they don't need all the space inside for electronics, maybe the battery will be bigger, or more features like wifi/bt/gps/younameit.

paul13walnut5

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2013, 04:45:55 AM »


You guys are stuck on the fact that current mirrorless cameras are smaller than current DSLRs.

Of course if there was pro-level mirrorless which is supposed to handle anything from ~10mm .... 600F4LIS, the body size must be similar to today DSLR bodies. If they don't need all the space inside for electronics, maybe the battery will be bigger, or more features like wifi/bt/gps/younameit.

I think the space is for the mirror box and prism.  Thus the mirrorless bit.  The mirror box also increases the required rear focus distance, although as Leica have discovered there are limits to how much you can bend light onto a sensor.

I would actually like to see a bigger camera, without mirrorbox and prism, replaced with a dichroic prism and 3 sensors. Get full colour depth at each pixel.  The assembly is huge so it may be smaller sensors are required. 

AvTvM

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2013, 04:46:08 AM »
I wonder how good they can make pancake primes.

Have a look, how small, light, fast and good primes can be made: http://en.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/lenses/

And contrary to urban legend, adding Ring-USM-AF to those lesnes would not cause additional bulk, but actually make them even smaller and lighter, once the utterly unneccessary manual focusing gear and focus ring will be finally exterminated. :-) 

weixing

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2013, 04:53:11 AM »
I wonder how good they can make pancake primes.

Have a look, how small, light, fast and good primes can be made: http://en.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/lenses/

And contrary to urban legend, adding Ring-USM-AF to those lesnes would not cause additional bulk, but actually make them even smaller and lighter, once the utterly unneccessary manual focusing gear and focus ring will be finally exterminated. :-)
    Ya... saw this video quite sometime ago... see the hair style of the lady assembly the lens... you know who to look for if you find hair inside your leica lens... ha ha ha  :P

   Have a nice day.

MLfan3

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2013, 04:54:03 AM »
I was talking to one of my friend last night and ask him is he is going get the Mark III.  He said "It forgoes the SLR system that is outdated which allows for a much more compact body. Imagine having the functionality and image quality of a 5D mark III but with the size and weight of a compact point n shoot. "

That might be true in the future  but I don't think mirrorless will replace our DSLR.    Can you imagine we (professional wedding.....etc photographers all carrying a tiny small camera for the photo shoot LOL.   

Professionals will also always need a veiwing system that allows them to still frame up shots when doing night photographer or heavy ND filter shooting. This is more difficult on a mirrorless with current ISO ratings because the image is shown on an LCD screen where as with a standard DSLR you're seeing the image the way your eye sees it.

I do not think this type of new AF and sensor tech will make D-SLR shaped camera obsolete but it makes the OVF and slapping mirror AF obsolete.

I mean some of us will always need a big camera to use big lens but we will not really need the OVF or analogue -era AF system with the annoyingly loud mirror.

I 've been shooting some concerts and church events(not weddings) sometimes, and the extremely loud mirror noise was the  main reason why they banned my D3s at last year's event.
Now I use my 6D for lowlight concert and church events because it is quiet and produces superb images at high ISO.
Any way, imagine, without the mirror slapping part of camera , how much faster and quieter the next gen SLR-shaped camera can get , being a mirrorless does not mean it must be small , but faster , cheaper and more reliable in many ways.
The on sensor PDAF tech is the first step for Canon , Nikon, Sony, etc to go true digital gen camera and this is why it is really important and as IR says it should be the camera tech of the year for 2013.

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2013, 04:58:41 AM »
Sony RX-1 is a fine sample that small body camera can produce EXCELLENT images. If Sony can release RX-2 with exchangeable lenses....DSLR could take a big hit. And if AF speed can focus as fast as DSLR...well, I will drop all my current gear and say "hello" to Sony.

Until then...I'll enjoy my 5D III + L lenses ;)

agreed RX-1 is an amazing pocketable camera, but its main problem is the terrible AF , if the AF was a bit better in lowlight, I might not have sold it for the 6D.

I think the next gen RX2 or whatever will be called will have to be a bit more matured product and I think I will get that.
But again , as you said , its sensor /lens combo is really nothing short of amazing.


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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2013, 04:58:41 AM »

Marsu42

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2013, 07:15:31 AM »
It all depends on the quality of the electronic viewfinder - with good on-sensor af and if (apart from the fact that a evf draws power) you cannot tell an evf from an ovf and the camera has a good af the days of the mirror systems will be over or only limited to a small legacy (pro) segment.

Cameras with mirrors will be as outdated as the systems from the 1800s where you had to remove a cap from the lens to take a picture - the mirror lets you see through the lens, but has nothing but disadvantages:

  • severely limited fps (120fps anyone?) and/or requires ultra-expensive sturdy components
  • moving component: limits camera lifespan (ok, some manufacturers will like that :-))
  • in a sensor-based af and high cpu power, you can do af/tracking yet unheard of ("please auto-track the bird with the yellow head and auto-focus on the eyes")
  • you can overlay any information in an efv like focus peaking, ovf is much more limited
  • blackout, you cannot see what you shoot (better with semi-transparent mirrors like the eos rt)

dgatwood

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2013, 12:12:42 PM »
It all depends on the quality of the electronic viewfinder - with good on-sensor af and if (apart from the fact that a evf draws power) you cannot tell an evf from an ovf ...

That's really not true, for two reasons:

1.  You can only add so much gain to the output before the signal you're getting becomes too poor to use even for viewfinder purposes.  Therefore, when you're shooting 30 second exposures at high ISO already, unless you're willing to accept a very low frame rate in the EVF, it isn't likely to let you see as well as you could with your naked eye through an OVF.

2.  When you're shooting at night, your eye is wide open to compensate for the lack of light.  I've never heard of an EVF that didn't put out enough light to cause an afterimage under those circumstances.  By contrast, it would be exceptionally rare for an OVF to do so.  :)

Yes, for daytime shooting, there's little difference.  For shooting anything in the dark—plays, concerts, starry night skies, etc.—the differences are a bit harder to avoid.



And one of the advantages of going mirror less is no more need for AFMA. I, for one, will not miss having to calibrate lenses...... And I can certainly live with F11 autofocus.


Why would there be no more need for AFMA?  Did Canon miraculously find a way to eliminate manufacturing variation in lens and body manufacture while I wasn't looking?
In a DSLR, normal focusing is done by diverting light to a focusing sensor. The camera then focuses accurately to this sensor, not the image sensor. If all is perfectly manufactured and aligned, the image is also focused properly for the image sensor, but as we know, with manufacturing tolerances and wear, this is not always true. aFMA calibration is how we correct for this discrepancy.

In live view, focusing is done on the image sensor so there is no second path to correct for.... Therefore, no mirror, no AFMA.

If that were the only reason for AFMA, then the AFMA value for every lens should be identical (or at least mathematically proportional in a trivially calculable way), because the difference in placement between those two sensors doesn't change when you change lenses.  More to the point, Canon would presumably calibrate out that difference at the factory, because there's no good reason not to do so.

If lenses adjusted their focus until infinite precision was achieved, then yes, it would eliminate the need for AFMA.  Then again, it would mostly eliminate the need if they did that for DSLRs, too.  It would also lengthen the delay before you take a picture, which is why they don't do that.  Instead, at least as I understand it, cameras compute the distance to move the lens, and where it stops, that's assumed to be in focus.  If that computation is off because the lens is even slightly imperfect in any way, then the lens will consistently either front-focus or back-focus.  This is why AFMA varies from lens to lens instead of being a constant value for each body.  Thus, mirrorless cameras won't eliminate the need for AFMA, to the best of my understanding.

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 12:34:58 PM by dgatwood »

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Re: Will Mirrorless Cameras Make Our Current DSLR Equipment Obsolete?
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2013, 12:12:42 PM »