November 29, 2014, 02:29:41 AM

Author Topic: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures  (Read 9818 times)

East Wind Photography

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 08:35:36 PM »
But the image provided is a JPG and has been processed.  It is obvious when you magnify the JPG file and see the blocking from JPG compression. 

As far as HTP and HINR is concerned, I am the source and now turn both off due to the effects it produces on RAW images.  There are a couple of options in the FW that affect raw images and those are two if them.

It looks like JPG compression noise..maybe either in camera or was adjusted again using software?

it´s an raw image she is talking about.. see the screenshot.

Quote
Sometimes the HINR can introduce noise even when not shooting high ISO....even in RAW mode.

it does not affect RAW at all when we trust the manual.
and i never heard about this option affecting RAW... you have a source?

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 08:35:36 PM »

dtaylor

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2013, 08:42:43 PM »
No one can reliably diagnose this without the original RAW. I'm not even sure what magnification I'm looking at, much less if LightRoom has done anything to it.

Upload the RAW.

East Wind Photography

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2013, 08:55:46 PM »
I dont have any examples.  I turned it off long ago but feel free to try it.  It's more apparent as the ISO goes up but still visible down to 200.  These two filters are used as the image is read from the chip not in post in camera JPG processing like the other filters.

So back to THIS image.  In addition to the JPG artifacts, I also see some color and some banding but hard to say if that was on the original image or due to LR screen shot and resizing for upload.  Really need to see the RAW or at LEAST an uncompressed JPG conversion.  I'm also thinking that this camera may have overheated as that can also introduce a lot of noise esp color blotching and banding.  Usually the camera flashes an error message though when it gets to that point but the effects may be gradual as the temp increases..not just a sudden introduction of noise.

Sometimes the HINR can introduce noise even when not shooting high ISO....even in RAW mode.

HINR shouldn't affect the RAW file - you're saying it does?  Can you show examples?

neuroanatomist

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2013, 09:09:16 PM »
As far as HTP and HINR is concerned, I am the source and now turn both off due to the effects it produces on RAW images.  There are a couple of options in the FW that affect raw images and those are two if them.

In that case, I'd like to respectfully ask 'the source' for some evidence.  I believe that the only in-camera setting that affects the RAW image data is long exposure NR, since the dark frame is subtracted before the RAW data are written.  I don't think HINR affects RAW image data.

FYI, 'the real source' (aka Canon) agrees with me, and disagrees with you.  They state that while some Canon software will try to replicate the effects of in-camera HINR (DPP, not so well, but it does try), "Virtually all third-party RAW file software programs, such as Adobe’s Camera Raw™ software, will ignore in-camera settings such as High ISO Noise Reduction....Don’t expect the High ISO Noise Reduction you may have set in-camera to have any effect with most third-party software programs."

As for HTP, that also doesn't affect the RAW image data directly, although I suppose you can reasonably say it does, since you're getting a RAW exposure that's a stop underexposed relative to the ISO you picked.  Like HINR, it also sets a flag in the metadata, but HTP also 'lies' in the metadata, recording ISO that's one stop higher than was actually used to expose the shot.  For example, if you set ISO 400 with HTP, the camera really exposes at ISO 200, but records ISO 400 in the metadata and then applies a tone curve to the JPG file to boost the shadows by a stop - that underexposure is how it preserves highlights (and of course, you also get an extra stop of shadow noise as a consequence).  Most RAW converters recognize the flag, and try to duplicate Canon's HTP tone curve with their own version (DPP uses Canon's version, obviously, but unlike HINR, 3rd party converters don't just ignore the metadata flag).  RAW apps like rawnalyze just show you the 1-stop underexposed file.  Point is, IMO rather than setting HTP, you're better off just exposing to preserve the highlights yourself, then boosting shadows in post yourself, where you have more control over the process.
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East Wind Photography

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2013, 09:23:46 PM »
As I stated give it a try or ask Canon.  That might get to the bottom of it.  What you quoted is that 3rd party software will ignore the setting.  It doesn't state that the camera has not already monkeyed with your image.  That is a carefully worded quote including the part about "most" software.

Regarding HTP, yes it does bring up the noise by about one stop...and in some cases it's better to go the other way and overexpose with a higher ISO to push the noise down by a stop or two in post.

In the case of this aircraft I would have over exposed the aircraft by a 1 or 1.5 stop (depending on full sun or overcast) and blown out the sky then pulled the aircraft back down with DPP or ACR.  The sky in this image appears too dark.  Could very well be HTP was on and was trying to appease the highlights.  Would also be nice to see the metadata tagged to the image as reported by DPP.

As far as HTP and HINR is concerned, I am the source and now turn both off due to the effects it produces on RAW images.  There are a couple of options in the FW that affect raw images and those are two if them.

In that case, I'd like to respectfully ask 'the source' for some evidence.  I believe that the only in-camera setting that affects the RAW image data is long exposure NR, since the dark frame is subtracted before the RAW data are written. 

FYI, 'the real source' (aka Canon) disagrees with you, and states that while some Canon software will try to replicate the effects of in-camera HINR (but DPP, not so much), "Virtually all third-party RAW file software programs, such as Adobe’s Camera Raw™ software, will ignore in-camera settings such as High ISO Noise Reduction....Don’t expect the High ISO Noise Reduction you may have set in-camera to have any effect with most third-party software programs."

As for HTP, that also doesn't affect the RAW image data directly, although I suppose you can reasonably say it does, since you're getting a RAW exposure that's a stop underexposed relative to the ISO you picked.  Like HINR, it also sets a flag in the metadata, but HTP also 'lies' in the metadata, recording ISO that's one stop higher than was actually used to expose the shot.  For example, if you set ISO 400 with HTP, the camera really exposes at ISO 200, but records ISO 400 in the metadata and then applies a tone curve to the JPG file to boost the shadows by a stop - that underexposure is how it preserves highlights (and of course, you also get an extra stop of shadow noise as a consequence).  Most RAW converters recognize the flag, and try to duplicate Canon's HTP tone curve with their own version (DPP uses Canon's version, obviously, but unlike HINR, 3rd party converters don't just ignore the metadata flag).  RAW apps like rawnalyze just show you the 1-stop underexposed file.  Point is, IMO rather than setting HTP, you're better off just exposing to preserve the highlights yourself, then boosting shadows in post yourself, where you have more control over the process.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2013, 09:36:07 PM »
As I stated give it a try or ask Canon.  That might get to the bottom of it.  What you quoted is that 3rd party software will ignore the setting.  It doesn't state that the camera has not already monkeyed with your image.  That is a carefully worded quote including the part about "most" software.

I have tried it - it has no effect on the RAW files (at least, not on the 7D where I tested it long ago, and not on the 1D X).  It's worded that way because there's probably some esoteric RAW converter out there that will try to do something in response to the HINR flag in the metadata. The article also states, "Don’t expect the High ISO Noise Reduction you may have set in-camera to have any effect with most third-party software programs."  That's what I see empirically - no effect.

So, while I'm certainly open to seeing evidence to the contrary, I rather doubt you'll be able to produce any (and conveniently, it's quite easy to state, 'it's not worth the effort').  If you really did see a difference long ago, I expect that was with DPP, ZoomBrowser, etc., which as stated, do try to mimic the in-camera JPG effect of setting HINR.

Honestly, the reason to leave it off is that it clobbers your shooting speed at high ISO even in RAW, because the camera performs the computationally-intensive HINR for the JPG preview image that's embedded in the RAW file.
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Ryan708

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2013, 09:45:43 PM »
Someone here must be new, arguing with Neuro Bahaha. Everything I have read agrees with Neuro.

as far as the original topic here, when you import a raw into lightroom it does not apply the standard "canon" noise reduction, but a much lower amount of NR. RAW images look like crap in lightroom untill some NR is applied.

Neuro, I have a Question:
I have noticed the Jpeg 7D images are much noisier than my 60D images, But I assume that is because of more modern NR being applied with the 60D, and the raw files should be identical in quality, being the same sensor, am I right?
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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2013, 09:45:43 PM »

East Wind Photography

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2013, 10:05:55 PM »
It's not an argument.  I am right and he is blind!  ;)  Just kidding.  It's good to banter things around.  Neuro and I differ on a lot of different topics here.  Neuro has a lot of experience as well as I.  People see things differently as we do in this case.  Regardless and for whatever reason I find the RAW images are better with HINR off even at lower ISO.  There are many reasons to use them and many more to just leave them off and do your clean up in post.

Re 60D vs 7D I did not find much difference in noise between the two but I did not own both at the same time and could not compare side by side.

Someone here must be new, arguing with Neuro Bahaha. Everything I have read agrees with Neuro.

as far as the original topic here, when you import a raw into lightroom it does not apply the standard "canon" noise reduction, but a much lower amount of NR. RAW images look like crap in lightroom untill some NR is applied.

Neuro, I have a Question:
I have noticed the Jpeg 7D images are much noisier than my 60D images, But I assume that is because of more modern NR being applied with the 60D, and the raw files should be identical in quality, being the same sensor, am I right?

neuroanatomist

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2013, 10:10:54 PM »
I have noticed the Jpeg 7D images are much noisier than my 60D images, But I assume that is because of more modern NR being applied with the 60D, and the raw files should be identical in quality, being the same sensor, am I right?

Two things going on. First, the default in-camera JPG conversion of the 60D has more NR applied (but that comes at the expense of some lost detail).  But in addition, the 60D RAW files are slightly less noisy (and I do mean slightly, not anywhere near enough to account for the 'much noisier' images you mention).  That could be the ADC, firmware, etc., but as I said - it's a subtle difference and not one you'd likely notice in everyday shooting of RAW images.
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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2013, 10:15:16 PM »
This is zoomed in. I can find no picture in my LR catalogue where the metadata text covers the image. There is always a part of the text that falls on the grey background.




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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2013, 10:16:13 PM »
Someone here must be new, arguing with Neuro Bahaha. Everything I have read agrees with Neuro.

as far as the original topic here, when you import a raw into lightroom it does not apply the standard "canon" noise reduction, but a much lower amount of NR. RAW images look like crap in lightroom untill some NR is applied.

Neuro, I have a Question:
I have noticed the Jpeg 7D images are much noisier than my 60D images, But I assume that is because of more modern NR being applied with the 60D, and the raw files should be identical in quality, being the same sensor, am I right?

When the 7D first came out, the jpeg processing was not nearly as good as it is in current cameras.  Images I took using RAW seemed noisy to me, even at ISO 800.  As better RAW processers became available, the noise seemed greatly reduced, and I was able to shoot at ISO 1600, and even 3200.
So, the new Adobe processors have revived my old 7D RAW images, but the jpeg ones stay the same.
 
For example, here is one taken with my 7D last year at ISO 1600 with no NR and no adjustments except for adding a little sharpening.  I would not have even considered using ISO 1600 originally.  About 1/2 the image was cropped away.  Certainly, if I view it 1:1, there is noise present, but the images prints very nicely.
 

 
 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 11:44:00 PM by Mt Spokane Photography »

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2013, 11:35:39 PM »
He shot faster then 1/1250, Auto Iso,  Exposure: spot, +1/3-2/3.

Is this shot cropped? If so, the noise is absolutely what you have to expect from the 18mp crop sensor, people buy a $3000 5d3 full frame plus expensive longer lenses for a reason.

Above iso 800 the quality of the current Canon crop sensor hits the fan if the shot is not properly exposed (ideally exposed to the right) - in your case the majority of the scene is somewhat underexposed because the camera seems to have adjusted for the bright jet exhaust, spot metering or not.

Note that there is no "real" iso 1250 on the crop sensor, the "real" analog iso steps are 100/200/400/800/1600/3200, everything else is only digitally modified in-camera. So to get acceptable quality shoot raw, try to keep @800 or go right up to 1600 to avoid motion blur like with the jet in the picture.

If you shoot raw or at least jpeg w/o in-camera noise reduction you can then apply *selective* noise reduction in postprocessing like with Lightroom: higher noise reduction for large,even parts and lower noise reduction for the detail parts might make a large difference.

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2013, 11:42:34 PM »
Looks normal to me.  Flat gray loves to show all the noise from that sensor.  Even 100 ISO can look like that on flat gray, especially at all underexposed.  Been actually going over files getting them ready for stock last couple days and cleaning noise.  It's been a big fat reminder how I never want to go back to crop sensors...because most of what I shoot is full of the same sorta large areas of flatness..that are dying to show off noise.  Got to the point I cringed going out to shoot any foggy scenes. 

Least the full frame options at the moment are more kind for that type of stuff but still can sometimes show some at low isos.  Blue sky is another one but nothing like flat gray.   

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2013, 11:42:34 PM »

shashinkaman

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2013, 11:58:30 PM »
I don't think any of you could give this poor guy an even remotely usefull answer... As per usual!
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BrandonKing96

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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2013, 12:50:25 AM »
I don't think any of you could give this poor guy an even remotely usefull answer... As per usual!
Then why don't you contribute? Just like these people actually have been.
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Re: Help needes: EOS 7D - noisy pictures
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2013, 12:50:25 AM »