July 29, 2014, 04:15:59 PM

Author Topic: 70D or 6D  (Read 32565 times)

intxaurrek

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2013, 01:43:38 AM »

Re lenses.  I currently have the Sigma 10-22mm.  Sigma 105mm Macro and the Canon EF 70-200F4L

I noticed a big jump in quality from my kit lenses and am looking at adding another lens between 10-22 and 70-200.  I don't want to jump into another APSc lens if I move up to a full frame camera, so will be waiting to see more reviews on the 70D when it comes out.

Sigma 10-22? You mean the 10-20? ( Sigma AF 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM ). I know of a Canon 10-22 EF-S. Anyway, both are digital crops.

IMVHO, the 6D is nice for studio or for cityscapes, but it can be a bit more annoying if you like trekking. I do landscapes most the times too but:

1) The general rule for landscapes, unlike portraits, is that the center of focus is off-center, and often you like appearing on the photos too on one side.  6D is no good at that for me. You can use the remote wifi triggering and focus off-center at yourself with both, but what is the point if the 6D fails focusing at that position?
2) Usually most landscape shots are full daylight at iso 100 (except for nightscapes), and/or forced long exposures with ND filters. I doubt there is so much difference in noise between both.
3) On landscapes there's no much point pixel noise peeping. Did you notice any noise on Ansel Adams shots due to his film's grain? ;-) You will not appreciate noise on tree leafs, rocks, sea... who cares about a bit of grain on sea sand?
4) I generally do enough with a 17 (17-55 f/2.8 IS). Its shallow depth can be nice when needed, and when one needs wider, usually it's necessary to take multiples shots anyway. I go with Autopano Giga and stitch nicely in those cases.
5) Wider zoom ranges provide me less weight to carry uphill, and a digital crop gives you lighter lenses for that.

Anyway, each of us has a different style for shooting, and more importantly very different needs. So I wouldn't generalize. Not everyone shooting landscapes cares about noise alone ;-))

The only real feature I miss is the GPS for geolocation, but fortunately I always need to carry my topo gps anyway so that I can correlate with no prob., hehehe.

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2013, 01:43:38 AM »

GaabNZ

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2013, 02:02:42 AM »

Re lenses.  I currently have the Sigma 10-22mm.  Sigma 105mm Macro and the Canon EF 70-200F4L

I noticed a big jump in quality from my kit lenses and am looking at adding another lens between 10-22 and 70-200.  I don't want to jump into another APSc lens if I move up to a full frame camera, so will be waiting to see more reviews on the 70D when it comes out.

Sigma 10-22? You mean the 10-20? ( Sigma AF 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM ). I know of a Canon 10-22 EF-S. Anyway, both are digital crops.


Sorry, yes, thats the one.  10mm-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM

yakman

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2013, 02:38:37 AM »
If main focus on landscape,

6D + 24-105 is a good choice.

Otherwise you can also consider add a mirrorless system
EOS M + (to be released EF M 11-22, EF M 18-55 also not bad)
EF M 18-55 STM seems sharper than the EFS lenses in the same range.
In APS C, to go wide, EF M seems better than EF S for now and future. I just sold my Sigma 10-20.
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sarakoth

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2013, 03:14:28 AM »
Gday.

I've a 6D with the 24-105
I've a 50d with a 15-85

I got the 6d cos of GPS/wifi/ff/pixels/ISO over the 50d.
I thought, meh, at crappy AF, I already had crappy AF. I was used to centre+recompose anyway. So 1 good AF point was ok.

Turns out .. it wasn't okay. Turns out the 50d centre point is a double-cross when at f2.8. Thus, my 6d centre point is pretty shitty with my wide aperture primes : ( . The 6D's centre point is single cross f5.6 and vertical f2.8. Boo.

So ... I find myself unable to use fast lenses with the 6D at wide open. AF is just too shitty for those.
If the 70d had been released before the 6D i would have gotten the 70d. Back then I didn't know why I would want GPS. Even now ... GPS I only use while holidaying or travelling.

Depending on the ISO abilities of the 70d, I would get the 70d over the 6d nowadays.
if the 70d gives me clean 6400iso then that's good enough for me.

Thanks for the feedback and that is a little surprising to me.. I had the centre point on the 6D was great, especially at low light, just the other points pretty much suck?

As someone else mentioned on a different thread.. if something isn't in focus, then it doesn't matter what the ISO, noise, DR, etc, etc is... it will be out of focus... which is my big worry with the 6D.

I also wonder how much light is considered "shooting in low light".. everyone seems to mention it but I am struggling to think what sort of situations I would find myself in low light as such. As it is, that is also why I have some faster lenses or IS to use.

I dunno.. kids hardly ever sit still, so even say at an indoor gym with low light (which is an example I had a couple of weeks ago for a party), I can't see the 6D being able to track them jumping around, where I assume the 70D will get more keepers, even if those keepers have higher noise and less DR?

Trouble for me at least is most of the time I want a great family "snapshots" of events & activities, and then some of the time I like to push my photography buttons and do some nice formal portraits, landscapes, etc.

At this stage I am waiting on some more detailed tests of both the AF and the IQ of the 70D.

pedro

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2013, 03:17:56 AM »
If you can afford it, I'd go FF. As good as the 70D may get, the 6D will have the edge in IQ. Especially once you choose to do some extremely low light handheld shots. My two cents.
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Janbo Makimbo

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2013, 04:23:48 AM »
Perhaps you could ask 70d or a Teaspoon as  this wouldmhave more relevance than your original question!!

sunnygal

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2013, 06:59:40 AM »
im in the same dilema. I have a 350D at the moment and i am just getting back into photography. Was looking at getting a 5D2 second hand, but then I was thinking i should just purchase brand new. Still going to wait till the 70D is released as i would like to hold it in my hands before making and prior purchases

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2013, 06:59:40 AM »

jasonsim

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2013, 10:48:08 AM »
*subscribed*

 :D

I have the same decision to make (though coming from an even older 500D)...

I like portraits, and a bit of landscape, but with young kids, sports carnivals, running around at parties, love animals at the zoo,etc.. it just seems other than the top of the line cameras, I have to make a choice and compromise what I want to shoot.

I invested in the 15-85 EF-S which is a great lens, but to go to a 6D I would have to get a 24-105 which is an additional cost as well and from some comparisons I have seen the IQ between then (on the same camera) is quite similar..

I was hanging out for a 7D2, but the more I read it is a real unknown when it will be available and it will also be a top of the line crop with alot of extras I don't need, for a lot more cost. hence thinking I should choose between the 70D and 6D.

If you like your 15-85mm EF-S IS lens (I had one and enjoyed it), then I would go with the 70D.  If the improvements to hight ISO materialize, I too might be interested.  Like you say, the 7D II will be much more especially if they make it with a built in grip (a la 1Dx).  The only thing that worries me about the 70D is the AF performance; I hope it is better than what was on the 7D.  There was no mention if there are any double cross type points in the 19 point array.  That make a big difference when tracking birds in flight. 
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sdsr

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2013, 12:01:30 PM »
Gday.

I've a 6D with the 24-105
I've a 50d with a 15-85

I got the 6d cos of GPS/wifi/ff/pixels/ISO over the 50d.
I thought, meh, at crappy AF, I already had crappy AF. I was used to centre+recompose anyway. So 1 good AF point was ok.

Turns out .. it wasn't okay. Turns out the 50d centre point is a double-cross when at f2.8. Thus, my 6d centre point is pretty shitty with my wide aperture primes : ( . The 6D's centre point is single cross f5.6 and vertical f2.8. Boo.

So ... I find myself unable to use fast lenses with the 6D at wide open. AF is just too shitty for those.


Really?  Maybe yours is defective.  I frequently use fast primes wide open on my 6D in low light (by which I mean dimly lit rooms, outdoors at night with sparse street lighting or less - that sort of thing) and almost never have a problem getting it to focus (and when I do have a problem, it's rather extreme situations like, say, a black statue).  Based on reports here and reviews, my experience is hardly atypical.

bholliman

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2013, 01:54:50 PM »
Gday.

I've a 6D with the 24-105
I've a 50d with a 15-85

I got the 6d cos of GPS/wifi/ff/pixels/ISO over the 50d.
I thought, meh, at crappy AF, I already had crappy AF. I was used to centre+recompose anyway. So 1 good AF point was ok.

Turns out .. it wasn't okay. Turns out the 50d centre point is a double-cross when at f2.8. Thus, my 6d centre point is pretty shitty with my wide aperture primes : ( . The 6D's centre point is single cross f5.6 and vertical f2.8. Boo.

So ... I find myself unable to use fast lenses with the 6D at wide open. AF is just too shitty for those.


Really?  Maybe yours is defective.  I frequently use fast primes wide open on my 6D in low light (by which I mean dimly lit rooms, outdoors at night with sparse street lighting or less - that sort of thing) and almost never have a problem getting it to focus (and when I do have a problem, it's rather extreme situations like, say, a black statue).  Based on reports here and reviews, my experience is hardly atypical.

+2  I have a 6D and don't have any problems getting pictures in focus.  The center AF point is great and the off-center points usable.  I use my 35 1.4L, 50 1.4, 85 1.8 and 135 2.0L extensively with the 6D with zero problems - in fact it works fantastic.

Oscaroo, you should have Canon service take a look at your camera.
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bholliman

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2013, 02:21:18 PM »
Based on what we know today, I'd recommend the 6D based on what the OP whats to use it for, but I think waiting a few months until hands-on reviews of the 70D are available would be a good idea.  We will all have a better idea about the 70D's high ISO capabilities and general IQ. 

I know the 6D is an excellent camera for landscapes and kids, I have one and that's what I use it for 95% of the time.  The 70D looks like an excellent camera from the early reviews.  However, its strengths appear to be video and sports.  The 6D's strength is IQ, so great for landscape, portraits and low light photography.

IMVHO, the 6D is nice for studio or for cityscapes, but it can be a bit more annoying if you like trekking. I do landscapes most the times too but:
1) The general rule for landscapes, unlike portraits, is that the center of focus is off-center, and often you like appearing on the photos too on one side.  6D is no good at that for me. You can use the remote wifi triggering and focus off-center at yourself with both, but what is the point if the 6D fails focusing at that position?
2) Usually most landscape shots are full daylight at iso 100 (except for nightscapes), and/or forced long exposures with ND filters. I doubt there is so much difference in noise between both.
3) On landscapes there's no much point pixel noise peeping. Did you notice any noise on Ansel Adams shots due to his film's grain? ;-) You will not appreciate noise on tree leafs, rocks, sea... who cares about a bit of grain on sea sand?
4) I generally do enough with a 17 (17-55 f/2.8 IS). Its shallow depth can be nice when needed, and when one needs wider, usually it's necessary to take multiples shots anyway. I go with Autopano Giga and stitch nicely in those cases.
5) Wider zoom ranges provide me less weight to carry uphill, and a digital crop gives you lighter lenses for that.

I find the 6D to be an excellent landscape camera.  I often take it on long hikes and overnight hiking/camping trips and it performs great.  What don't you like about it for trekking?

(1) For landscapes, you are generally going for as much depth of field as you can without running into diffraction, so typically f/8-f/16.  Generally, I'm using a wide focal length 24-35mm, I try to keep the foreground interest elements at or near the hyperfocal distance for my lens - which yields a very high DOF.  I focus on the foreground element either using the center AF point and re-composing, or one of the non-center points that work very well in decent light.  At these narrow apertures, even if you miss the focus a little it will not matter, as nearly everything will be in focus due to the DOF.
(2) I have a 7D and 6D and agree the noise of the 7D is pretty much non-existant at ISO 320 and below.  However, the OP stated he wanted to use the camera for taking pictures of kids.  I also have two kids at home, and find the low-light/high ISO capabilities of the 6D to be terrific.  I take lots of indoor shots of the kids at ISO3200 that look great.  I don't even consider shots like that with my 7D - the noise would be impossible to clean up in PP.
(3) Depends on the photographer.  I'm pretty anal, so like my landscape shots to be noise-free. 
(4) The 17-55 2.8 is a great lens!
(5) Agreed, APS-C lenses are much smaller and lighter.  Full format will give you better image quality at the expense of size and weight of the gear.  That said APS-C IQ is pretty damned good, more than good enough for most people, so its really a matter of personal preference.
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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2013, 02:22:49 PM »
A lot of issues that people have when focussing with the 6D tend to be more about the user and not the camera!

CarlTN

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2013, 03:35:23 PM »
Hi all, I've been following the site for a while now and just signed up today.

I'm looking at upgrading from my 600D which I have really enjoyed using and learning from.

Without seeing any real hands on reviews and images from the 70D quite yet, I am keen to hear some thoughts on which camera you guys think would be a good upgrade.

I am not interested in the video side of things, only stills photography.  It is not something I do to make money, but I do get a lot of enjoyment from photography.

I like to shoot landscapes, but also with 2 young kids like to photograph them too.

I'm looking at either the 6D or the 70D when it comes out.  I have a friend who shoots with a Nikon D800e and he always recommends the full frame route.

I'm also wondering if the price of the 6D will drop at all when the 70D is released.

I'm just interested in opinions either way.

Cheers

In my opinion, nobody should have an opinion on the 70D just yet.  Wait for hands on and some real testing.

The price has already dropped as low as it will go on the 6D, with B&H's current "deal" and $400 rebate.  Not sure if you can take advantage of this if you are outside the USA, though.  The only time the 6D's price will be lower, is when its own replacement gets close.

My vote is for the 6D, especially since you're only interested in stills photography, and you shoot landscape.  Much debate exists over the 6D's autofocus ability, so I will now delve into that abyss for four paragraphs.  My copy works just fine, even in servo mode in low light, whether with all points or center point.  Certainly the outer points are the weak link, but at the 6D's price point (compared to Nikon's D600), I feel there is no significant difference in overall autofocus performance.  The 7D's sensor (which the 70D is supposedly getting), however, might fare better...I have not done a side by side to test autofocus with one yet.  I've only used the 7D on it's own.

Further on the above point...just two nights ago, I performed some servo tracking testing with my 135 f/2L lens on my 6D.  With a bit of tweaking of the servo autofocus menu, at 4.5 frames per second, I was able to get 6 to 7 out of 10 shots at or near perfect focus...all points active.  However, to achieve this I needed to keep the subject at or around the center point.  But...With only a single outer AF point active, the number of sharp shots dropped to 3 out of 10.  This is certainly what most of those who complain about the 6D's autofocus, are complaining about.  Additionally, apparently there have been some samples of the 6D which included a faulty AF sensor.  Not sure if Canon has officially commented on that.  I would say, perhaps beware of samples with early production serial numbers.  HOWEVER...there are also those people who just want to brow beat 6D users, in a lame attempt to convince them they wasted their money, and should have bought the 5D3 instead.  Ignore these people; their minds are closed.  They seem to lack photographic and technical ability.

The subject was a camera lens box on a moderately lit (a lot less than daytime sun intensity) table, indoors.  Color temperature needed about 2600K, so that should indicate the low quality of the light.  The movement was me, holding the camera and walking very swiftly toward the target.  Shutter priority mode was 1/800, aperture varied between f/2 and f/2.2.  Auto ISO varied between 12.8k and 20k.  The results are more than adequate servo autofocus performance, compared to the 5D3, 1D4, and 1DX I have used.  Apologies to those 6D haters out there, but it really does work adequately.  On still targets in a comparably very very dark room, I was able to coax some auto focus out of the outer points, but it took time.  The center point obviously worked fairly well.  In a similar very low light situation (with the same 135L mounted), I could not get the 1D4 to AF at all, it hunted and gave up.

In bright daylight, servo autofocus via my 6D, can get between 7 and 10 out of 10 shots in perfect focus...depending on how difficult and busy the background lighting is...especially if that background has bright contrasty elements, and the target subject is dimly lit with very little contrast.  So this is basically very close to the best autofocus available in bright light...in my opinion...achieved with a much reviled AF sensor to boot.  I will admit that there are probably situations with extremely fast moving targets, where my results would fall well below 7 out of 10 sharp shots in very bright light.  But I have not encountered those yet.  I'd like to.  Some of these targets include machines that rev to 18,000 rpm and will visit the "Circuit of the Americas" in Texas later this year.

However, considering a purchase of the 6D, is dependent on how many full frame lenses you currently own, or are willing to buy.  Price is a huge factor with them.

The advantages of the 6D as a full frame camera for landscape, should still prevail even over the new 70D with it's digic 6...especially since wide angle landscape will likely always be hindered by dedicated crop format wide angle lenses, with their inferior resolution and higher effective chromatic aberration (due to their lower quality of design, lower tolerances, and the CA is magnified by the smaller pixels of the crop format).  I have owned and rented quite a few, none of them were stellar...some better than others. 

However, if you use the best quality full frame wide angle lenses and are happy with the narrower FOV of a 1.6x crop, such as with a Zeiss 15mm f/2.8 (it might be the "best" overall wide angle lens currently available)...then I suppose a 70D could suffice, if you like its other qualities better than the 6D.

But...for low ISO, and/or longer exposure/tripod landscape imaging only...overall the Nikon D800E is certainly still the best body available.  When the future high MP Canon body comes out, that will likely change...but it should be priced well above the D800.  So price could be a factor there, especially for a non-pro, or a part time pro who does not yet make big money, like myself.  Not that I am considering Nikon...but it's low ISO performance advantage is real, and widely accepted on here.  Nikon as a system, however, is not superior, and much of the time, inferior.

Oh, and as for high ISO performance (above 1600, but specifically between 2000 and 10,000...where low available light photography lives), I say the 6D generates the cleanest files available in 35mm format.  Depending on the specific ISO setting, I have found the 1DX's RAW files to have less chrominance noise than the 6D, but higher luminance noise (grain).  Ditto for the 5D3, only it's slightly worse than the 1DX.  Their grain is large in its structure, and thus it cannot be "reduced" without throwing away a lot of resolution.  The 6D's grain at the pixel level, is much finer.  Thus a bit more of it can be reduced in post editing, without throwing resolution out with it.  The Nikon D600's noise performance, from the comparison samples I have seen, looks far worse with both types of noise, than any of these three Canons.

No doubt the 70D will have fine noise performance for a crop camera, but whether or not it beats the Sony/Nikon 1.5x crop sensors, I don't know.  It might only equal them, if that.  That would still put it miles ahead of the 7D, and the T4i or T5i.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 04:47:08 PM by CarlTN »

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2013, 03:35:23 PM »

Aurora Borealis

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2013, 04:53:41 PM »
What do you think of your ISO performance today? Is it OK or completely inadequate?

Given the same choice and considering the little info there are on the web I'd still go for the 70D as long as ISO performance were as good as or better than the 600D.

Here is a suggestion:
70D + 10-22 + 430ex

That would mean a new wide angle lens and possibly a flash. But both the flash and lens are great and I can warmly recommend them. The 10-22 have shorter MFD than the 17-40 (same price but FF) and therefore creates stronger pictures.

When it comes to zoom, you cant get better than the Canon 70-200f4L IMO. The 2.8 is great but IQ@f4 is not so much better that it warrants the extra weight and cost.

northbyten

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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2013, 08:30:18 PM »
6D without a doubt.


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Re: 70D or 6D
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2013, 08:30:18 PM »