August 01, 2014, 01:09:30 PM

Author Topic: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3  (Read 8379 times)

paul13walnut5

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 04:58:53 AM »
Hi Mkabi,

The BMD 4K actually has an s35 sensor.  So no massive difference between that in terms of field of view from my current bodies.

I wouldn't be shooting 4K straight away, thinking 2 or 3 years down the line when I would almost certainly be editing on a faster machine with more RAM / RAID etc.

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 04:58:53 AM »

syder

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2013, 07:45:01 AM »
Good question - and a choice similar to one I'm about to be faced with... I've just started work at a new university who need to upgrade their production facilities and want me to start writing a quote for what I want them to buy in...

5Dm3 I'd only consider if you want something to do stills as well as video

C100 seems like an excellent all rounder - and quality-wise with an external recorder the results look fairly close to a C300 (which a lot of people in broadcast I know use and love). Wont over/undercrank if you think you'll need that (FS700 might be worth a look in that case).

Speaking of which - there are E to EF mount adaptors for the FS100/700. Although unless you're sold on needing the crazy cool super slow motion or the (unlikely to be cheap I dont think its out yet) 4k and RAW upgrade the C100 looks a better package to me.

BMC4k is hypothetically amazing... But then the BMC original camera was touted by many to blow anything under 10k away (especially on techy forums), And it sort of does if you're doing short fiction work under controlled lighting and can look past the quirks (one might say shortcomings) of the camera. But for event/documentary uses it's issues outweigh it's advantes imo.

Now in general I'm of the opinion that 2nd generation tech tends to iron out a lot of the issues that groundbreaking tech often comes burdened with - and by losing the 2x crop, and the resource hungry uncompressed RAW the BMC 4k looks like it's taking steps in the right direction. But losing DNxHD support  is something that makes it less attractive (they could have kept a DNxHD 1080 mode for Avid/Windows users). However, for anything outside of controlled  conditions I'd still rather have a C100 for its low light capabilities, ND filters, XLR inputs etc.

Planning for 5 years time is pretty hard - if you were writing this in 2008 what would your options have been? 5dM2 (with its almost comical firmware limitations on launch) wasn't out by then... So Z1, Ex1, Panny HVX201, Canon XF100... All of which are solid camcorders, but in terms of aesthetic possibilities, low light capabilities, lens choice etc look very limiting compared to what's around now. At least the move to modular systems means that in 3-5 years you'll still have your lens investment which will be useful.

As an aside on the topic of grading, if you've got enough RAM and GPU power to run it I'd recommend having a look at the lite version of Davinci Resolve. Its free, and extremely powerful.

paul13walnut5

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2013, 08:48:12 AM »
will check out resolve.

Think my OS might be the limiting factor (10.6.8)
Do you export XML or do you have to output and then import?  Don't do a lot of grading, and generally use magic bullet or looks plug ins.

2008?.. What would I have been looking at then? We had a z1 but still mainly used our DSR-570, would probably have been something 2/3rds, and something HD... Maybe a 1/2" EX1 at a push.

Our DSR-570 has been revived a couple of time recently, but think the next round of shocks could be terminal.
I also know the tech moves fast, but we have to jump on at some point and hope we can hang on for long enough.  The battery life, audio connects and form of the BMD 4K concern me.  If it were my cash I'd have got a c100 by now.

Thanks again for the insightful reply.

syder

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2013, 08:05:47 PM »
XML out (I'm guessing from your previous post about a 32bit NLE that means you're using FCP 7) should work fine - although you can also export and detect scene changes.

Out of interest, if you are with FCP7 have you spent much time working with Color - it's actually really quite good (when it was Final Touch before Apple bought it it retailed for some obscene amount). Resolve is more powerful (its nodal system is better for really complex grades then the room based Color system), but the workflow from FCP7>Colour is so quick and easy (and less resource demanding to run) that it might be worth a look first.

paul13walnut5

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2013, 08:21:47 PM »
Yep, I've played with color and have a couple of presets I like, the bouncing between apps is a godsend, even for soundtrack.  May FCS3 rest in peace.


Jeff@8K

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 01:49:57 PM »
Hi Paul,

For full disclosure, I own a C300, C100 and 5D MKIII.

I went through the buying process a while ago. On my list was the Epic, BMCC, FS100, FS700 and C300. I obsessed over this for hours, read every forum, every tech spec, you name it. I then went to my LA and organized a shootout with all the cameras in one place. I went in convinced that I was going to get an FS700. The first cameras I ruled out were the Sony's. The ergonomics are horrible and the build quality was cheesy in my opinion. The BMCC wasn't there but I had seen it at NAB. Again, ergonomics and the need for massive amounts of accessories ruled it out. Epic was #2 on my list but after looking at the accessory and post needs, I ruled it out. I picked up the C300 and I was instantly in love with the ergonomics, then I fell in love with the post flow. A month later, I bought a C300 and a C100 as my B camera with a Ninja 2.

First thing to consider is your post workflow and needs. I don't need 4K, it is too storage intensive for me and if your stuff is not going into a movie theater or needs archiving I see no current need (for me) for 4K. Would I like to have it, yes, do I need it, no.

The C100 is a great tool, the MK III is going to severly limit you in many situations. My $0.02

Jeffrey Farrell
www.8kproductions.com


paul13walnut5

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2013, 04:45:54 AM »
Cheers Jeff.

Concise and informative.


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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2013, 04:45:54 AM »

Niki

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2013, 05:35:58 AM »
what I do....RENT THE BEST CAMERA FOR THE JOB....if you're going to buy a camera...test all your choices yourself...I own a 5dmark iii and a super 16mm film camera...it keeps things interesting...

paul13walnut5

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2013, 06:23:43 AM »
Renting not an option, will use the camera half the working days of the year.

Getting hands on isn't always an option either, only one dealer locally, who can't carry every model (and who, like every other dealer has bother getting bmd's) I have tested the c300 there and like it apart from the sheer bulk, the c100 looks more like an option.

You can only learn so much in a test session, it is also good to hear feedback from folk who have used, as bugs or issues become apparent in real life use that you won't read on a website.

I am swinging towards the c100, if my business case is successful.

leGreve

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2013, 06:54:15 AM »
If BMD actually manages to ship the 4K cinema camera, then that with a Speed Booster would make it a very interesting camera.

If moving up the line is an option, I'd rather go all the way and spend the very much extra cash on the Epic Dragon or the Sony F series.... or wait and see what outrageous price the 4K Alexa will land at :P

In regards to storage, it's only an issue as long as the project is ongoing.

Workflow wise just render out proxy files and work on those, then do the grading and effects on the finished edit. That will take a big edge off machine power needs.
5D III -  Zeiss Otus 55mm 1.4 ~ 24-70 2.8L II ~ 70-200 2.8L II IS USM ~ 100 2.8L IS USM Macro ~ 16-35 2.8L II ~ Canon Extender 2x III

dirtcastle

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2013, 11:27:36 PM »
You might consider the resale value of each. If you buy new, the lower the price of the camera, the less you will lose when you resell it (at least in absolute terms). If you buy used... you might not lose much at all if you resell it.

I tend to think of all my buying of cameras and lenses as "renting" them. I'm always ready to sell them if need be. Plus, when you rent you deposit the value of the camera/lens anyway.

I think most of us can relate to beating ourselves up over what to purchase, but from my own experience I can say that I'm never 100% it will work until I actually use it.

paul13walnut5

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2013, 04:43:14 PM »


In regards to storage, it's only an issue as long as the project is ongoing.


Hmm.  RT playback etc needs very fast disk speeds too.

paul13walnut5

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2013, 04:44:49 PM »
You might consider the resale value of each. If you buy new, the lower the price of the camera, the less you will lose when you resell it (at least in absolute terms). If you buy used... you might not lose much at all if you resell it.

I tend to think of all my buying of cameras and lenses as "renting" them. I'm always ready to sell them if need be. Plus, when you rent you deposit the value of the camera/lens anyway.

I think most of us can relate to beating ourselves up over what to purchase, but from my own experience I can say that I'm never 100% it will work until I actually use it.

It's a work purchase, unlikely to be resold, just run until it breaks or is obselete.  If I was using my personal cash for it, yep absolutely, it's going to be bought to be used though, and with no mind to resale.

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2013, 04:44:49 PM »

dirtcastle

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2013, 01:33:10 AM »
You might consider the resale value of each. If you buy new, the lower the price of the camera, the less you will lose when you resell it (at least in absolute terms). If you buy used... you might not lose much at all if you resell it.

I tend to think of all my buying of cameras and lenses as "renting" them. I'm always ready to sell them if need be. Plus, when you rent you deposit the value of the camera/lens anyway.

I think most of us can relate to beating ourselves up over what to purchase, but from my own experience I can say that I'm never 100% it will work until I actually use it.

It's a work purchase, unlikely to be resold, just run until it breaks or is obselete.  If I was using my personal cash for it, yep absolutely, it's going to be bought to be used though, and with no mind to resale.

Assuming you have the budget for a new C100, I would get a C100 for bread/butter shooting. As I see it, the 5D3 and the Blackmagic cameras have a lot in common but they each have their inconveniences and extra work or gear required.

I've only shot with the 5D3, but I can't imagine the Blackmagic cameras are that much easier to use (either during shooting or in post). On the other hand, I can see how a C100 would be much easier to deal with in terms of shooting and workflow. Ultimately, I feel like it's a question of shooting needs vs quality needs. The trade-off would seem to be between ease-of-use vs ultimate image quality. If I was shooting run-and-gun solo stuff and 1080p AVCHD was good enough... bam, there it is: C100. But if you're gonna be tearing it apart in post and shooting for maximum quality: 5D3 or BM.

Personally, I could never spend that much money and still not have something better than 1080p AVCHD. But if I were a pro shooter, I would purchase the one that was right for my work. Either image quality is important, or it's not. In this case, it doesn't sound like it's that crucial (if it were, you would have stated the minimum quality needed). So it sounds like C100 is the way to go, to save you time and headaches for image quality you don't need.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 01:40:24 AM by dirtcastle »

paul13walnut5

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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2013, 04:54:59 AM »
Either image quality is important, or it's not. In this case, it doesn't sound like it's that crucial (if it were, you would have stated the minimum quality needed).

Image quality is important.  Our films are played to an assembled audience of up to 1000 people, and are frequently broadcast as part of a programme edit.  And I do this at present from my 7D and T3i (and ENG and HDV)

I'm not going to composite.  Beyond colour correction off my header qpcard reel I'm not going to grade anything.

Image quality is important.

Do I need RAW, no. 

I'm just sorry I gave the impression that, as a professional cameraman, that image quality wasn't important.

If you've only shot with the 5D3 then maybe you aren't best placed to provide a helpful answer?

And in terms of ease of use?

I've done the DSLR route,  love the large sensor look for certain things.  Hate the handling, hate the ergonomics, hate the cobbled on audio, hate the WB procedure.  Nothing about what I shoot is about 'ease of use' it's about buying something designed for the job.

You say 'if I were a pro shooter'?  What are you then? Shooting to show your pals on vimeo?

I'm not being chippy, but to throw in a line like 'Either image quality is important or it's not'...

..thats divisive and going to get a response.




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Re: BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2013, 04:54:59 AM »