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Author Topic: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]  (Read 24948 times)

rs

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2013, 10:51:48 AM »
BTW ...

How about focus peaking and a swivel screen ?
With on chip PDAF covering the whole area, I see no reason why canon couldn't do on-screen split focus, as Fuji have implemented with the X100S. But with Canons resistance so far to implement focus peaking, I'm guessing neither will appear anytime soon
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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2013, 10:51:48 AM »

neech7

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2013, 10:58:07 AM »
I'm guessing this whole telecompressor thing is a stepping stone to Canon fitting a FF sensor in an EOS-M sized body. If they believe there's a market for people to mount FF glass on a mirrorless, why not make the body/adapter smaller and optically better by fitting a bigger sensor in leu of the glass - and then native wide angle FF glass can be made to take advantage of the shorter flange distance. If a crop dual pixel sensor is possible, so is a FF version.

That would require a new mount, because APS-C is the biggest that can fit the EOS-M.

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2013, 11:01:52 AM »
That would require a new mount, because APS-C is the biggest that can fit the EOS-M.

 ???

The EF and EF-S mount are the same size...
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neech7

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2013, 11:06:42 AM »
That would require a new mount, because APS-C is the biggest that can fit the EOS-M.

 ???

The EF and EF-S mount are the same size...

He's talking about stuffing a FF sensor into EF-M, whose diameter is smaller than EF/EF-S. The EF-M is optimized for APS-C, just like EF is optimized for FF. EF-S is a compromise because it has the bulk of the EF with a smaller imaging circle.


rs

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2013, 11:09:07 AM »

I'm guessing this whole telecompressor thing is a stepping stone to Canon fitting a FF sensor in an EOS-M sized body. If they believe there's a market for people to mount FF glass on a mirrorless, why not make the body/adapter smaller and optically better by fitting a bigger sensor in leu of the glass - and then native wide angle FF glass can be made to take advantage of the shorter flange distance. If a crop dual pixel sensor is possible, so is a FF version.

If your proposed system allowed EF lenses to be mounted at a shorter flange distance, wouldn't it require sensors larger than our FF sensors? Sounds like a challenging and expensive proposition! Not an unwelcome one though.  ;)
I was thinking of using a glass-free tube, much like the current EF to EF-M adapter to use FF glass on a FF sensor and retain the normal focus range. Focal lengths above about 40mm can't really be made smaller with a reduction in the flange distance (just look at the shorty forty), so just use EF glass with a tube adapter. But the EF-M flange distance lends itself well to shorter lenses such as 22mm pancakes. There's little reason why a similar sized 22mm pancake couldn't have a larger imaging circle for FF. That would make it more compact than even a crop M for wide angle.
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transpo1

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2013, 11:10:23 AM »
I just posted a few hours ago in the $299 EOS thread that it seemed like a silly purchase; since Canon would likely be replacing it with a dual-pixel AF markII version.

I guess I was spot on with that prediction.

Sounds spot off, to me. Maybe I'm biased because I bought one for $299. But, if this rumor is true (it's CR1, just the new 100-400 has been for what, 4 years?), the next M will be an 18 MP minor update (T5i/SL1 sensor), and the 20 MP dual pixel CMOS will follow that...but when?  And 'aimed at the FF Canon shooter' sounds like a $900-1000 camera, to me.  So, $299 really doesn't sound 'silly' especially when the camera + 22mm pancake only costs $85 more than the 22mm pancake alone.  That way, the next M can be bought with the kit zoom (since the best way to buy a kit lens is in a kit), and even selling the body for $150 you'd come out ahead...  Or you'd have a cheap body for IR conversion - one almost ideally suited for it as any lens can be used.

Just my $0.02 (or $299, as the case may be).

Spot on. I bought one, too- $299 for an APS-C sensor w/an ultra-compact 35mm equivalent pancake that w/an adapter can take all of my EF lenses is a great deal. Also, I'm a video shooter and not having to get the shutter out of the way everytime you shoot video is a wonderful feature- a great backup for my 5Dii.

CANONisOK

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2013, 11:56:20 AM »

I'm guessing this whole telecompressor thing is a stepping stone to Canon fitting a FF sensor in an EOS-M sized body. If they believe there's a market for people to mount FF glass on a mirrorless, why not make the body/adapter smaller and optically better by fitting a bigger sensor in leu of the glass - and then native wide angle FF glass can be made to take advantage of the shorter flange distance. If a crop dual pixel sensor is possible, so is a FF version.

If your proposed system allowed EF lenses to be mounted at a shorter flange distance, wouldn't it require sensors larger than our FF sensors? Sounds like a challenging and expensive proposition! Not an unwelcome one though.  ;)
I was thinking of using a glass-free tube, much like the current EF to EF-M adapter to use FF glass on a FF sensor and retain the normal focus range. Focal lengths above about 40mm can't really be made smaller with a reduction in the flange distance (just look at the shorty forty), so just use EF glass with a tube adapter. But the EF-M flange distance lends itself well to shorter lenses such as 22mm pancakes. There's little reason why a similar sized 22mm pancake couldn't have a larger imaging circle for FF. That would make it more compact than even a crop M for wide angle.
Thanks for the clarification! I can see where you're going with this. Following this down its logical path, if Canon released this FF compact which requires an adapter for EF lenses, do you think they'd release a new lens mount for direct mounting to the on-camera flange? I guess it wouldn't be much different than their current EF/EF-S systems, but I'd be surprised to see them have two mirrorless lens systems out there.
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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2013, 11:56:20 AM »

justsomedude

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2013, 12:17:51 PM »

In my opinion the EOS-M is not worthy of its price tag due to its poor AF, even at $299.  Opinions vary.  And people can buy in to first generation gear; it's their money - their choice.  They know the risks going in.  And when there's a fire sale, it's pretty telling that the new technology (ie, dual-pixel AF) just made the previous generation obsolete.


You are spot on.  I picked up my M last night and realised that it didn't have dual pixel AF.  I cried.  I gave it a viking burial.  I think my 7D and 600D are going to get it next. 

Obsolete is in the dictionary.  Look it up.

Are you being cute?  I can't tell.

Obsolete:  Out of date.  No longer current.

The dual-pixel AF system launched on the 70D single-handedly restructured Canon's line that is based around Live-View focusing.  And, in case you are unaware, the EOS-M line is the only one based around Live-View focusing.

Do you really not find it curious that there's a $299 fire sale on the EOS-M, and then hours later rumors drop of a replacement in the works? 

You may want to look up naive... it's in the dictionary too. 

 :P

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2013, 12:29:11 PM »
The dual-pixel AF system launched on the 70D single-handedly restructured Canon's line that is based around Live-View focusing.  And, in case you are unaware, the EOS-M line is the only one based around Live-View focusing.

You're using the past tense.  I do not think the restructuring you think has happened has actually happened.  In fact, if you read the rumor that 'dropped just hours after a fire sale' you'll see that, according to that rumor, Canon intends to release another M camera before dual pixel CMOS 'restructures' anything about the M series. 

And, in case you are unaware, the EOS-M line is the only one based around Live-View focusing.

So apparently, you are unaware of the PowerShot G1 X, not to mention the other PowerShots with CMOS sensors. 
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distant.star

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2013, 01:16:26 PM »
.
I, for one, fully comprehend manufacturer/retailer relationships.

However, I'll never believe Canon does not have some hand in this particular move. To think B&H suddenly got a wild hair up their tookus one day and fire-saled the M and then their competition followed the piper like mice is far too improbable.

This is why I initially said I'm scratching my head trying to understand this. There is something behind it -- and I know all (or some at least) will be revealed in time.

Meanwhile, while I think it would be delightful to have the M right now, I'm not taking the bait. For me, it won't get me any pictures I can't get with my current equipment.

No offense intended to anyone who bought into this deal. I think that's great for you if you need it or just want it. And I'll be listening to hear your experiences with it -- so far I've heard nothing but good things. Thanks.




Why is it that people never seem to get that retailers are not Canon and an individual retailers pricing decision often occurs independent of Canon (or any other manufacturer).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Fact: Canon is not offering the EOS M for $299.
Fact: There is no rebate currently offered for the EOS-M, which means no enforcement of minimum advertised pricing.
Fact: B&H offered the camera for $299.
Fact: We don't know why B&H made this offer.
Fact: Adorama and Amazon are major competitors with B&H.
Fact: Adorama and Amazon matched B&H's price.
Fact: We don't know why Adorama and Amazon matched B&H's price, but we can speculate it has something to do with the competitive marketplace.
Fact: Eventually, the EOS-M will be replaced.

Assuming any relationship between the last fact and all those preceding, without correcting for all of the other variables, is simply sloppy reasoning.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2013, 01:22:52 PM »
Fact: Canon is not offering the EOS M for $299.
Fact: There is no rebate currently offered for the EOS-M, which means no enforcement of minimum advertised pricing.
Fact: B&H offered the camera for $299.
Fact: We don't know why B&H made this offer.
Fact: Adorama and Amazon are major competitors with B&H.
Fact: Adorama and Amazon matched B&H's price.
Fact: We don't know why Adorama and Amazon matched B&H's price, but we can speculate it has something to do with the competitive marketplace.
Fact: Eventually, the EOS-M will be replaced.

Fact: B&H, Adorama, and Amazon offered a very low price on the EOS M
Speculation: Canon had a large backstock of EOS M kits
Speculation: Canon offered discount wholesale pricing to a select group of their largest US retailers
Speculation: The discount pricing was based on retailers' purchase of a large number of units
Speculation: Canon did this to drive wider adoption of the EOS M system
Fact: I bought one, it's been delivered to my building and I'll have my hands on it within the hour
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CANONisOK

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2013, 01:29:39 PM »
Fact: I bought one, it's been delivered to my building and I'll have my hands on it within the hour
Fact: You got it for a great price.
Fact: I, for one, think it's a great little camera (even before the firmware update).
Speculation: Being an advanced user, you will find it to be a great camera with intuitive controls, a small footprint, and great IQ considering the size of the package.
Speculation: You will like it.
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justsomedude

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2013, 02:38:37 PM »
The dual-pixel AF system launched on the 70D single-handedly restructured Canon's line that is based around Live-View focusing.  And, in case you are unaware, the EOS-M line is the only one based around Live-View focusing.

You're using the past tense.  I do not think the restructuring you think has happened has actually happened.  In fact, if you read the rumor that 'dropped just hours after a fire sale' you'll see that, according to that rumor, Canon intends to release another M camera before dual pixel CMOS 'restructures' anything about the M series. 

And, in case you are unaware, the EOS-M line is the only one based around Live-View focusing.

So apparently, you are unaware of the PowerShot G1 X, not to mention the other PowerShots with CMOS sensors.

I'm also unaware of my stinky feet... but my girlfriend continues to complain about them.  :P

Actually, I just don't understand all of the projecting that takes place on these forums.  I state my opinion that I think the current EOS-M is a bad buy, and you'd think I just insulted some one's mother... at her funeral.

Why does everyone care so much about what others think of how they choose to spend their money?

I still think the EOS-M is a bad buy.  And no amount of sarcastic responses, or jabs at my knowledge of the word "obsolete" will change that fact.  Cripes.  Take the camera out and have fun... really... WHO CARES????????

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2013, 02:38:37 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2013, 02:57:32 PM »
Actually, I just don't understand all of the projecting that takes place on these forums.   I state my opinion that I think the current EOS-M is a bad buy...

At a guess, I'd say it was because the word you used was 'silly'...being called silly (and yes, I know that's not what you stated, but that's a natural interpretation) tends to piss people off. 
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Rienzphotoz

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2013, 03:04:18 PM »
I state my opinion that I think the current EOS-M is a bad buy, and you'd think I just insulted some one's mother... at her funeral.
Simple solution, don't make them think you "just insulted some one's mother... at her funeral" ;D
But we get it, you don't like EOS-M and you don't want to buy it at $299 or at any other price... thanks for letting us know. ::)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 03:11:08 PM by Rienzphotoz »
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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2013, 03:04:18 PM »