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Author Topic: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]  (Read 24920 times)

pwp

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2013, 12:20:42 AM »
The 20mpx dual sensor flagship model with EVF sound like the camera made just for me!
I'll have one with a 20mm pancake please...

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2013, 12:20:42 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2013, 12:34:12 AM »
The 20mpx dual sensor flagship model with EVF sound like the camera made just for me!
I'll have one with a 20mm pancake please...

Sure, that'll be $1,200.00, please...    ;)
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eos650

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2013, 12:42:19 AM »
A one stop focal length reducer would create some really interesting effective lenses. I'm thinking a one stop focal length reducer would be the opposite of a 1.4X teleconverter. If so, I come up with the following, assuming my math is correct.

85mm f1.2 would become a 60.7mm f0.86.

Here is my math...
85mm / 1.4 = 60.71mm

f-Stop = f/d (f-Stop = focal length / diameter). Solve for 'd':
  1.2 = 85/d
  1.2d = 85
  d = 85/1.2
  d = 70.83

Plug in the new focal length. I expect the diameter would remain the same since it's the diameter at the front of the lens:

f-Stop = 60.71 / 70.83

f-stop = .857


JohanCruyff

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2013, 01:47:13 AM »

"Also in development is a focal length reducer for EF lenses, this will be announced with the 20mp EOS M camera"

That is something you hear about more in astronomy.  But a 0.8 focal reducer that would turn your 10-22 3.5-4.5 into, say, a 8-18 2.8 - 3.6 would be interesting.  A Meade or Celestron focal reducer costs in the neighborhood of $100.  Count on the Canon being $300, maybe.  Because it is Canon, and because it has the EOS electronic connections. 

Let's see -- a .8 reducer would make the 85 1.8 a 68 1.4.  But the efl would still be a bit over 100mm because of the crop factor.   This sounds intriguing, but will probably not be inexpensive.

A reducer factor of 0.63 would restore EF lenses to their full frame optical values. (0.63 = 1/1.6).  I wonder if that's it....

I would expect a factor of .707 (sqrt(2)/2) mainly because it would be an even 1 stop difference, whereas a factor of .63 comes out to a very odd 5/4ths stops.

85/1.8 would become a 60/1.3
24-70/2.8 would become 17-50/2
70-200/4 would become 50-140/2.8

I think that would be enough to make focal lengths that are only so-so on crop (24-anything) quite attractive.


...and the 60/1.3 would become a 85/1.8 equivalent,
the 17-50/2 would become a 24-70/2.8 equivalent,
the 50-140/2.8 would become a 70-200/4 equivalent,
on a crop body.

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bvukich

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2013, 02:28:41 AM »
A one stop focal length reducer would create some really interesting effective lenses. I'm thinking a one stop focal length reducer would be the opposite of a 1.4X teleconverter. If so, I come up with the following, assuming my math is correct.

85mm f1.2 would become a 60.7mm f0.86.

Here is my math...
85mm / 1.4 = 60.71mm

f-Stop = f/d (f-Stop = focal length / diameter). Solve for 'd':
  1.2 = 85/d
  1.2d = 85
  d = 85/1.2
  d = 70.83

Plug in the new focal length. I expect the diameter would remain the same since it's the diameter at the front of the lens:

f-Stop = 60.71 / 70.83

f-stop = .857

Your answer is pretty close (one stop faster than 1.2 is .84), the math is actually quite a bit more complicated though.

Actual formula:

sqrt(2)^((log(OLDF)/log(sqrt(2))+CHANGE)

Since OLDF = 1.2 (actually it's sqrt(2)^.5 if you want exact numbers, or approx 1.18920711500272)
And CHANGE = -1

sqrt(2)^((log(1.2)/log(sqrt(2))-1) =~ 0.848528137423857
or
sqrt(2)^((log(sqrt(2)^.5)/log(sqrt(2))-1)) =~ 0.840896415253714


bvukich

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2013, 02:44:20 AM »

"Also in development is a focal length reducer for EF lenses, this will be announced with the 20mp EOS M camera"

That is something you hear about more in astronomy.  But a 0.8 focal reducer that would turn your 10-22 3.5-4.5 into, say, a 8-18 2.8 - 3.6 would be interesting.  A Meade or Celestron focal reducer costs in the neighborhood of $100.  Count on the Canon being $300, maybe.  Because it is Canon, and because it has the EOS electronic connections. 

Let's see -- a .8 reducer would make the 85 1.8 a 68 1.4.  But the efl would still be a bit over 100mm because of the crop factor.   This sounds intriguing, but will probably not be inexpensive.

A reducer factor of 0.63 would restore EF lenses to their full frame optical values. (0.63 = 1/1.6).  I wonder if that's it....

I would expect a factor of .707 (sqrt(2)/2) mainly because it would be an even 1 stop difference, whereas a factor of .63 comes out to a very odd 5/4ths stops.

85/1.8 would become a 60/1.3
24-70/2.8 would become 17-50/2
70-200/4 would become 50-140/2.8

I think that would be enough to make focal lengths that are only so-so on crop (24-anything) quite attractive.


...and the 60/1.3 would become a 85/1.8 equivalent,
the 17-50/2 would become a 24-70/2.8 equivalent,
the 50-140/2.8 would become a 70-200/4 equivalent,
on a crop body.

Not quite
The 85/1.8 converted to 60/1.3 would behave like a 96/1.3 instead of a 128/1.8 if unconverted
The 24-70/2.8 converted to 17-50/2 would behave like a 27-80/2 instead of a 38-112/2.8 if unconverted
And the 70-200/4 converted to 50-140/2.8 would behave like a 80-224/2.8 instead of a 112-320/4 if unconverted

Obviously all these numbers are with a .707 conversion factor, which is just my guess, and a 1.6 crop factor.

Also , when I say "behave", I'm talking about FOV and exposure. DOF/bokeh/etc., not included.

rs

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2013, 02:49:33 AM »
A one stop focal length reducer would create some really interesting effective lenses. I'm thinking a one stop focal length reducer would be the opposite of a 1.4X teleconverter. If so, I come up with the following, assuming my math is correct.

85mm f1.2 would become a 60.7mm f0.86.

Here is my math...
85mm / 1.4 = 60.71mm

f-Stop = f/d (f-Stop = focal length / diameter). Solve for 'd':
  1.2 = 85/d
  1.2d = 85
  d = 85/1.2
  d = 70.83

Plug in the new focal length. I expect the diameter would remain the same since it's the diameter at the front of the lens:

f-Stop = 60.71 / 70.83

f-stop = .857

Your answer is pretty close (one stop faster than 1.2 is .84), the math is actually quite a bit more complicated though.

Actual formula:

sqrt(2)^((log(OLDF)/log(sqrt(2))+CHANGE)

Since OLDF = 1.2 (actually it's sqrt(2)^.5 if you want exact numbers, or approx 1.18920711500272)
And CHANGE = -1

sqrt(2)^((log(1.2)/log(sqrt(2))-1) =~ 0.848528137423857
or
sqrt(2)^((log(sqrt(2)^.5)/log(sqrt(2))-1)) =~ 0.840896415253714
However, if Canon want to retain the same field of view, depth of field and light gathering capabilities that EF lenses enjoy on FF, they'll need to develop a 1.6x telecompressor instead of a 1.4x. That would make an EF 85/1.2 into an EF-M 53/0.74 lens.

Lets hope that an EF lens, telecompressor and dual pixel AF sensor combine to make a quick and accurate AF system, as well as good image quality.
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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2013, 02:49:33 AM »

RGomezPhotos

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2013, 03:00:27 AM »
I think it's a sweet camera with the firmware upgrade.  I really wish I didn't have to use an adapter to use my EF lenses.  But at least I can use them with the camera.  Better than a P.S., smaller and cheaper than a DSLR.  Almost as capable.

If I had the cash, I would've seriously considered the EOS M.  Definitely good gear.
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bvukich

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2013, 03:28:54 AM »
A one stop focal length reducer would create some really interesting effective lenses. I'm thinking a one stop focal length reducer would be the opposite of a 1.4X teleconverter. If so, I come up with the following, assuming my math is correct.

85mm f1.2 would become a 60.7mm f0.86.

Here is my math...
85mm / 1.4 = 60.71mm

f-Stop = f/d (f-Stop = focal length / diameter). Solve for 'd':
  1.2 = 85/d
  1.2d = 85
  d = 85/1.2
  d = 70.83

Plug in the new focal length. I expect the diameter would remain the same since it's the diameter at the front of the lens:

f-Stop = 60.71 / 70.83

f-stop = .857

Your answer is pretty close (one stop faster than 1.2 is .84), the math is actually quite a bit more complicated though.

Actual formula:

sqrt(2)^((log(OLDF)/log(sqrt(2))+CHANGE)

Since OLDF = 1.2 (actually it's sqrt(2)^.5 if you want exact numbers, or approx 1.18920711500272)
And CHANGE = -1

sqrt(2)^((log(1.2)/log(sqrt(2))-1) =~ 0.848528137423857
or
sqrt(2)^((log(sqrt(2)^.5)/log(sqrt(2))-1)) =~ 0.840896415253714
However, if Canon want to retain the same field of view, depth of field and light gathering capabilities that EF lenses enjoy on FF, they'll need to develop a 1.6x telecompressor instead of a 1.4x. That would make an EF 85/1.2 into an EF-M 53/0.74 lens.

Lets hope that an EF lens, telecompressor and dual pixel AF sensor combine to make a quick and accurate AF system, as well as good image quality.

I just reran the numbers starting with image circle sizes (43.2mm & 27.3mm) and working from there, and my original calculation of 5/4ths stop is a bit off now, and it is actually pretty damn close to 4/3rds stops (-1.32426072248723) which would be a very convenient factor (except for the goofy 1/6th stops you get when going from a half stop like 1.2, but that really only affects two lenses).

That would make an 85/1.2 convert to a 54(53.7)/.75(.749) that behaves like a an 85/.75 on crop.  Yes please  ;D

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2013, 03:38:51 AM »

I just reran the numbers starting with image circle sizes (43.2mm & 27.3mm) and working from there, and my original calculation of 5/4ths stop is a bit off now, and it is actually pretty damn close to 4/3rds stops (-1.32426072248723) which would be a very convenient factor (except for the goofy 1/6th stops you get when going from a half stop like 1.2, but that really only affects two lenses).

That would make an 85/1.2 convert to a 54(53.7)/.75(.749) that behaves like a an 85/.75 on crop.  Yes please  ;D
So the focal length is effectively unchanged at 85mm? Even though you're dividing it by sqrt(2) and multiplying it by 1.6 (for crop)?
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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2013, 04:42:44 AM »

In my opinion the EOS-M is not worthy of its price tag due to its poor AF, even at $299.  Opinions vary.  And people can buy in to first generation gear; it's their money - their choice.  They know the risks going in.  And when there's a fire sale, it's pretty telling that the new technology (ie, dual-pixel AF) just made the previous generation obsolete.


You are spot on.  I picked up my M last night and realised that it didn't have dual pixel AF.  I cried.  I gave it a viking burial.  I think my 7D and 600D are going to get it next. 

Obsolete is in the dictionary.  Look it up.

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2013, 04:43:29 AM »
The easiest way to think of what a speedbooster does to your sensor size and focal length is the following:

When you don't use a speedbooster, you constantly multiply your focal lengths by 1.6 to get the "equivalent focal length". With a speedbooster that is no longer necessary.

WITH A SPEEDBOOSTER, YOUR APS-C CAMERA JUST BECAME A FULLFRAME CAMERA, AND ISO IS ACTUALLY TWICE AS HIGH AS WHAT THE CAMERA SAYS

So, when I use a 50mm on my NEX-5N with a speedbooster, set at f/1.4 and with ISO 200, I get an image with the same field of view, depth of field, and exposure, as I'd get with that same 50mm on a 5D3, set at f/1.4 and with ISO 400.
There, no more math. It becomes a FF camera, end of story.

mb66energy

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2013, 05:03:15 AM »
Heh.

I just posted a few hours ago in the $299 EOS thread that it seemed like a silly purchase; since Canon would likely be replacing it with a dual-pixel AF markII version.

I guess I was spot on with that prediction.

 8)

Yes and no - the lens alone is roughly 200 $ / EUR - so you get a fully functional body with battery for 100 bucks! I would be happy if I would see this offer in germany. And I think a dual pixel AF version will be offered as body only version!
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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2013, 05:03:15 AM »

Etienne

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2013, 05:11:01 AM »
The easiest way to think of what a speedbooster does to your sensor size and focal length is the following:

When you don't use a speedbooster, you constantly multiply your focal lengths by 1.6 to get the "equivalent focal length". With a speedbooster that is no longer necessary.

WITH A SPEEDBOOSTER, YOUR APS-C CAMERA JUST BECAME A FULLFRAME CAMERA, AND ISO IS ACTUALLY TWICE AS HIGH AS WHAT THE CAMERA SAYS

So, when I use a 50mm on my NEX-5N with a speedbooster, set at f/1.4 and with ISO 200, I get an image with the same field of view, depth of field, and exposure, as I'd get with that same 50mm on a 5D3, set at f/1.4 and with ISO 400.
There, no more math. It becomes a FF camera, end of story.

You should get an additional 1 1/3 stops of light. If Canon makes it, I imagine they would compensate by making f-stop read accurately... so that the camera would see f/1.8 instead of f/2.8, for example.

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2013, 05:53:05 AM »

Firmware sounds like it has improved things in AF for Video and stills which is good and good news that the next generation models to have the technology of Dual Cmos AF from the 700D which will elevate it to fingers cross one of the best AF in terms of speed; lock on in the target; % of keeps in the Mirrorless market

Hopefully Canon will introduce models like that like to that of the Sony equivalents; Nex-5, Nex-6 and hopefully Aps and FF Nex-7 (using the excellent 6D/ 5D Sensor) - possibly doing a VG100 Camcorder line 2 and hopefully price is competitive and not over the top.

The AF systems Canon brought out like in the 5D is certainly better than the Nikon D800 and Sony A-99 - which is exciting news that Canon is getting serious (less complacent) and hopefully on top again.

One area that does need work is the lens selection in the Eos-Mount however the EF adapter is good price and excellent adapter that allows you to use any of the excellent Eos lenses.

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Re: The Next EOS M Camera(s) [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2013, 05:53:05 AM »