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Author Topic: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?  (Read 29873 times)

yakman

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2013, 06:16:59 AM »
@AmbientLight
Google translate should take the credit (or blame for poor translation), I'm too lazy to translate  :D

What surprised me was no mention of the sensor fabrication process in the English news release. Even worse they mentioned 70D high ISO is on par with 60D.
In general the official 70D Chinese release provides much more info compared to the English version.
The official Japanese release seems double confirmed the new process.

http://translate.google.com/translate?langpair=auto%7Cen&u=http://cweb.canon.jp/eos/lineup/70d/feature-highquality.html

"Advanced technology to support high sensitivity, low noise and a wide dynamic range.

Aims to improve the aperture ratio of the photodiode of the CMOS sensor in the introduction the new miniaturization process in CMOS semiconductor process. Expression that take advantage of more, a wide dynamic range and high sensitivity and low noise is now possible. Moreover, adoption conjunction with photodiode structure having excellent photoelectric conversion efficiency, the pixel transistors improved to reduce the noise of the pixel portion. Improve the S / N ratio, and high ISO sensitivity. In addition, gapless micro lens with excellent light collection efficiency has also contributed significantly to the high sensitivity."

We'll have to wait and see how these marketing press really translate to
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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2013, 06:16:59 AM »

aj1575

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2013, 06:21:55 AM »
I for my part think that Canon made the switch to a new process with the 70D sensor. Canon admited, that 18MP was the limit with the process they had then. So if they now make an APS-C sensor with 40million photodiodes (there are two diodes that can be read seperatly in every of the 20.2MP), then I think they definitly made the move to a new process.

For those who think that Canon has a problem with high ISO noise, just go over to DXO Mark and check the graphs (not their rubbish ratings, but the real measurments). Take the Nikon D600, Canon 6D and Sony a900; look at the graph, and tell me which camera you would take for low light photography. I think we have a clear winner with the 6D. The 6D looses out in dynamic range at low ISO, and has worse color sensitivity, but DR and SNR are better than the rest at high ISO.

Don't get yourself fooled by the DXOMark Rating, it shows not the whole picture. It is also difficult to judge what a 5 or 10 point difference means exactly.

I'm looking forward to the DXOMark measurments of the 70D; I think we will see some surprises, not that the 70D will storm to the top, but just a different behavior then the recent Canon sensor (which was rather predictable).

pedro

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2013, 10:12:05 AM »
I for my part think that Canon made the switch to a new process with the 70D sensor. Canon admited, that 18MP was the limit with the process they had then. So if they now make an APS-C sensor with 40million photodiodes (there are two diodes that can be read seperatly in every of the 20.2MP), then I think they definitly made the move to a new process.

For those who think that Canon has a problem with high ISO noise, just go over to DXO Mark and check the graphs (not their rubbish ratings, but the real measurments). Take the Nikon D600, Canon 6D and Sony a900; look at the graph, and tell me which camera you would take for low light photography. I think we have a clear winner with the 6D. The 6D looses out in dynamic range at low ISO, and has worse color sensitivity, but DR and SNR are better than the rest at high ISO.

Don't get yourself fooled by the DXOMark Rating, it shows not the whole picture. It is also difficult to judge what a 5 or 10 point difference means exactly.

I'm looking forward to the DXOMark measurments of the 70D; I think we will see some surprises, not that the 70D will storm to the top, but just a different behavior then the recent Canon sensor (which was rather predictable).

yakman's hints corelate with yours, so I will be really looking forward towards more info once the RAW samples are available and real world tests by other users are done.
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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2013, 11:43:28 AM »
As someone who does not upgrade every model, I see significant differences between cameras. Model to model you see small incremental improvements (REALLY SMALL with the T5i) but over many models you see large improvements.

To change from 18 to 40 megapixels, to introduce pixel binning, to introduce the dual-pixel-phase-detect, does imply that this model is a significant change that would require new fabrication technologies. Time will tell, but it is looking more and more that this is going to be the transition point of Canon DSLR's to a new level
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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2013, 12:00:10 PM »
sony is making 63% of it´s profit from insurance these days.

the electronic part of sony is a money grave.

it´s more and more likely sony will split off or even sell the electronics department.
canon would be dumb to depend on sony for sensor manufacturing in the long run.

and i have not much trust in the sony DSLR system either.

sony may has invested the most in manufacturing plants... but it does not PAY.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/28/business/global/sonys-bread-and-butter-its-not-electronics.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

you are wrong, Sonys sensor department is healthy, they earn money from the mobile sensors up to 24x36mm
that other departments such as television, consumer electronics, etc. are not going so well is another question

he talked about electronics at sony and he gave a source.

where is your source? (*)

they earn money... how much?
how long till they get the investment back?

sony electronics are overall in a bad spot compared to canon.


(*) don´t mind i found it myself.


Quote
Sony saw revenues of its semiconductor department (mainly focusing on image sensors) fall 11.5% on quarter to JPY164.1 billion in the first quarter of 2013. However, Sony aims to increase 2013 annual revenues to JPY500 billion from JPY480 billion in 2012.




« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 12:06:39 PM by Tanja »

jrista

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2013, 12:40:09 PM »
Thank you, Ankorwatt. Guess I missed this one. So I hope, they come up with something similar at a lower cost and even more improved within the next 4 to 5 years, once the 5DIV or the 5DV (or whatever they may call it by then) is released. What is the reason for the higher internal cost at Canon? March 2011 hurricane?

Keep in mind, ankorwatt only presumes that Canon cannot produce a FULL FRAME sensor on a 180nm fab process. As far as I know, Canon does have the ability to manufacture APS-C and smaller sensors in their 180nm fabs on smaller wafers (8in, rather than 12in). Technically speaking, one could produce FF sensors on smaller wafers as well, it would just be terribly inefficient and therefor prohibitively expensive.

I would not be surprised if the 70D sensor (an APS-C, not FF, sensor) WAS produced on 8in wafers with a 180nm process. They would certainly have to do something in order to be capable of producing 40 million pixels, along with the extra transistor logic to support simultaneous single-readout as well as binned readout. That is a lot more transistors per pixel than Canon ever used to have. I would be rather surprised if they are capable of doing that with a 500nm process.

Canon's primary low-iso DR problem has less to do with fabrication process than it does with the fact that they use off-die, high frequency ADC (and when parallel DIGIC chips are used, that increases the chances of strong vertical banding with an even pitch.) If Canon has finally moved to a 180nm process, I think there is more hope of them finally moving to an on-die parallel ADC solution. Who knows if they will also move to digital readout like Exmor, but I think at the very least moving to on-die hyper-parallel ADC will help their read noise issues.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 12:44:58 PM by jrista »

David Hull

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2013, 12:57:13 PM »
The big unknown at this time is whether Canon will use the same sensor in the 7DII or not.

If the 7DII has the same sensor as the 70D, Canon will have a hard time, IMO, convincing people to spend more on the 7DII.
The 70D specs are quite good already, so why bother?

It would be a completely different story, though, if the 7DII has better image quality than the 70D.

So, it makes more sense for Canon to put a better sensor in the 7DII - but who knows what they will actually do.

I have long thought (and I have seen you post along the same lines) that the cost of the external AFE would drive Canon to integrate (or partner with a sensor vendor who does) but this hasn’t seemed to be the case.  Their cameras seem to sell well despite somewhat poorer performance on the low ISO end.  My gut feel is that the 5DIII is outselling the D800 (for example) despite the higher (MSRP) price and the lower base ISO performance.

I think that the bulk of camera buyers outside of guys like us that hang out on gear forums grousing over DxO results don’t pay much attention to the sensor details.  Even I, having participated in these types of discussions for the last few years, bought a 5DIII.  I did this with full knowledge of the test data and full understanding of the potential implications having seen Horshack’s demos, and the endless postings from Mikael and others.  One of the main influences on my decision was the fact that I used the 5DII for several years and never found any IQ deficiency that wasn’t relatively easy to work around.  My biggest complaint was the AF system which they fixed.

I still think that ultimately it will be the cost that makes them improve the sensors but apparently for now their cost model seems to be working.   From an IQ perspective there really is no difference until you push it into the corner and most users never do that.

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2013, 12:57:13 PM »

jrista

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2013, 01:32:13 PM »
The big unknown at this time is whether Canon will use the same sensor in the 7DII or not.

If the 7DII has the same sensor as the 70D, Canon will have a hard time, IMO, convincing people to spend more on the 7DII.
The 70D specs are quite good already, so why bother?

It would be a completely different story, though, if the 7DII has better image quality than the 70D.

So, it makes more sense for Canon to put a better sensor in the 7DII - but who knows what they will actually do.

I have long thought (and I have seen you post along the same lines) that the cost of the external AFE would drive Canon to integrate (or partner with a sensor vendor who does) but this hasn’t seemed to be the case.  Their cameras seem to sell well despite somewhat poorer performance on the low ISO end.  My gut feel is that the 5DIII is outselling the D800 (for example) despite the higher (MSRP) price and the lower base ISO performance.

I think that the bulk of camera buyers outside of guys like us that hang out on gear forums grousing over DxO results don’t pay much attention to the sensor details.  Even I, having participated in these types of discussions for the last few years, bought a 5DIII.  I did this with full knowledge of the test data and full understanding of the potential implications having seen Horshack’s demos, and the endless postings from Mikael and others.  One of the main influences on my decision was the fact that I used the 5DII for several years and never found any IQ deficiency that wasn’t relatively easy to work around.  My biggest complaint was the AF system which they fixed.

I still think that ultimately it will be the cost that makes them improve the sensors but apparently for now their cost model seems to be working.   From an IQ perspective there really is no difference until you push it into the corner and most users never do that.

Well said.

Rienzphotoz

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2013, 01:42:39 PM »
sony is making 63% of it´s profit from insurance these days.

the electronic part of sony is a money grave.

sony may has invested the most in manufacturing plants... but it does not PAY.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/28/business/global/sonys-bread-and-butter-its-not-electronics.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Interesting
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jrista

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2013, 02:41:33 PM »
sony is making 63% of it´s profit from insurance these days.

the electronic part of sony is a money grave.

it´s more and more likely sony will split off or even sell the electronics department.
canon would be dumb to depend on sony for sensor manufacturing in the long run.

and i have not much trust in the sony DSLR system either.

sony may has invested the most in manufacturing plants... but it does not PAY.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/28/business/global/sonys-bread-and-butter-its-not-electronics.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

you are wrong, Sonys sensor department is healthy, they earn money from the mobile sensors up to 24x36mm
that other departments such as television, consumer electronics, etc. are not going so well is another question

Sorry, but the linked reference begs to differ. This is what I've been saying for months, if not a year. Sony has had to go so far into debt to build their electronics industry over the last decade that their debt costs too much. They pay an inordinate amount of money to service their debt, and the income they make off of their electronics products isn't enough to cover it. Electronics, especially today, are low margin products...its tough to make meaningful profit on any electronic device...be it TV, phone, or CMOS chip. The problem becomes even worse when Sony undercuts themselves while trying to undercut the competition (i.e. $399 for PS4 in order to undercut Microsoft's $499 XBox One). Just "being top dog" isn't enough if you aren't making any money on the product. Sony may have won some hearts with a $399 PS4, but if it doesn't pay the bills...will there actually BE any PS4s for those heats to buy when the time comes? Exmor is an amazing CIS, but if Sony isn't around in a few years to actually continue supporting a highly competitive environment because they folded under too much debt and not enough revenue, what good is it?

x-vision

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2013, 02:52:41 PM »
Wise words as usual David. Hope you have a nice summer as we have.

+1

David Hull

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2013, 03:26:40 PM »
I for my part think that Canon made the switch to a new process with the 70D sensor. Canon admited, that 18MP was the limit with the process they had then. So if they now make an APS-C sensor with 40million photodiodes (there are two diodes that can be read seperatly in every of the 20.2MP), then I think they definitly made the move to a new process.

For those who think that Canon has a problem with high ISO noise, just go over to DXO Mark and check the graphs (not their rubbish ratings, but the real measurments). Take the Nikon D600, Canon 6D and Sony a900; look at the graph, and tell me which camera you would take for low light photography. I think we have a clear winner with the 6D. The 6D looses out in dynamic range at low ISO, and has worse color sensitivity, but DR and SNR are better than the rest at high ISO.

Don't get yourself fooled by the DXOMark Rating, it shows not the whole picture. It is also difficult to judge what a 5 or 10 point difference means exactly.

I'm looking forward to the DXOMark measurments of the 70D; I think we will see some surprises, not that the 70D will storm to the top, but just a different behavior then the recent Canon sensor (which was rather predictable).

if you take a look at all parameters you se that the canons sensors are behind in color depth,DR, and also in high iso.
this is a Toshiba sensor

How does any of this affect a real photograph?  Let's just take one of them, colour depth.  The difference between 22 and 24 bits is going to be indistinguishable in any type of real world use.  Can you show us a photo where this difference is evident?

 

David Hull

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2013, 07:06:23 PM »
I for my part think that Canon made the switch to a new process with the 70D sensor. Canon admited, that 18MP was the limit with the process they had then. So if they now make an APS-C sensor with 40million photodiodes (there are two diodes that can be read seperatly in every of the 20.2MP), then I think they definitly made the move to a new process.

For those who think that Canon has a problem with high ISO noise, just go over to DXO Mark and check the graphs (not their rubbish ratings, but the real measurments). Take the Nikon D600, Canon 6D and Sony a900; look at the graph, and tell me which camera you would take for low light photography. I think we have a clear winner with the 6D. The 6D looses out in dynamic range at low ISO, and has worse color sensitivity, but DR and SNR are better than the rest at high ISO.

Don't get yourself fooled by the DXOMark Rating, it shows not the whole picture. It is also difficult to judge what a 5 or 10 point difference means exactly.

I'm looking forward to the DXOMark measurments of the 70D; I think we will see some surprises, not that the 70D will storm to the top, but just a different behavior then the recent Canon sensor (which was rather predictable).

if you take a look at all parameters you se that the canons sensors are behind in color depth,DR, and also in high iso.
this is a Toshiba sensor

How does any of this affect a real photograph?  Let's just take one of them, colour depth.  The difference between 22 and 24 bits is going to be indistinguishable in any type of real world use.  Can you show us a photo where this difference is evident?

 

yes I can, and there are difference between my Canon and Nikon cameras, especially in colors as green.You can also se it in lower levels where  Canon can not reproduce the same colors as Nikon.
I have been working with colors, colors reproduction, color profiles since my first scanner in the beginning of the -90
and can  invite a color specialist who can easily can explain how the different cameras CFA works and how steep these filters are and what it means, Canons color filter are thinner by the years to gain light which you can se by comparing 1dsmk3 and the 5dmk3 or mk2 .

I don't really need an explanation of how the CFA works; I have been reading that stuff for years.  Nor do I need someone to tell me that Nikon and Canon render colors differently, that fact is well known and has also been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere.
 
The reason I responded to your comment is that I continually see people trotting out these DxO numbers claiming that they represent some sort of scathing indictment of Canon technology yet when I look at images produced by each technology, the results are pretty much indistinguishable in terms of IQ.  About the only one of these that can be demonstrated in an actual photograph is the oft discussed read noise and that requires some pretty serious “image abuse” to do.

To me, the acid test will be to perform a double blind experiment where several photographers walk through an exhibition of displayed prints and correctly identify which camera shot them.  I have never seen this done (or even attempted) but if all of this DxO stuff really carried any real world significance, identifying the superior performing technology in such a test would be a “slam dunk” and… I think we both know that is not going to be the case.

The proof lies in the images themselves, if dramatic differences not evident in the images, then there has to be some question as to the real world relevance of the measurements that are supposed to be indicative of image quality.

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2013, 07:06:23 PM »

northbyten

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2013, 08:29:11 PM »
I just want to see what Canon's next FF sensor can do.

jrista

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2013, 02:56:10 PM »
This is a iPhone picture, and people have let me know  here at CR that they think it is good picture regarding sun set

Hmm...first things first....any "good" landscape photo, sunset or otherwise...would have a flat horizon! (This one is wildly tilted...)

As for good...try this (taken with a Canon by Marc Adamus):

http://500px.com/photo/2905633

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2013, 02:56:10 PM »