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Author Topic: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?  (Read 87923 times)

Skulker

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2013, 04:03:16 PM »

Doesn't the image posted by J.R. indicate that the imaging division (explicitly called out in the sidebar, along with a couple others) posted an Operating LOSS last year? As I read the chart, Sony brought in three trillion yen, but spent 229 billion more yen than they brought in in revenues...

Most people read the numbers to indicate that sort of performance, me included. But ankorwatt seemed to think he knew better.
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2013, 04:03:16 PM »

jrista

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2013, 04:29:38 PM »

Doesn't the image posted by J.R. indicate that the imaging division (explicitly called out in the sidebar, along with a couple others) posted an Operating LOSS last year? As I read the chart, Sony brought in three trillion yen, but spent 229 billion more yen than they brought in in revenues...

Most people read the numbers to indicate that sort of performance, me included. But ankorwatt seemed to think he knew better.

Well, as long as there isn't any difference in the way the Japanese report their financials.

As for ankor...that's pretty much his M.O....he just plain and simply knows better, about everything, right? ;P

AprilForever

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2013, 04:34:57 PM »


........ Sonys sensor department is healthy, they earn money from the mobile sensors up to 24x36mm
that other departments such as television, consumer electronics, etc. are not going so well is another question ......

Do you have any justification for this statement? or is it just plucked from the depths of your mind?

They sell to everyone -including canon-, they're bound to be profitable.

"Sony, the third largest semiconductor firm in Japan, divides its semiconductor business into in-house use and outside sales. The fourth-quarter revenues from outside sales reached JPY90 billion, representing a sequential increase of 19%. The firm has reported revenue growth for two consecutive quarters and continues to stay in profit."
from :http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20130325PD206.html

Profit is a relative and often misleading term. When you are tens of billions of dollars in debt, a significant portion of which was required to build the fabs that make Sony sensors, as well as put into the R&D and patent purchases...well, profit simply means deferred payments on debt. The electronics divisions of Sony, of which IC fabrication is a part, have been in the red for years. Even if some of the subdivisions are making some money, overall Sony is hemorrhaging from their electronics division (and they STILL have immense piles of debt at high interest rates.)
And don't underestimate the impact of profit on a product line. Take a look at Olympus 4/3 cameras ( 4/3, not micro 4/3). The line was not profitable so they let it drop. If Sony cameras are not profitable, expect to see them dropped.

I hope not... I kind of was hopin gincreased competition would help the market...
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Don Haines

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2013, 09:08:54 PM »

Let us se when Canon starts to invest any money in new tech and sensor lines to keep up and how it  will affects the camera division's finances
You mean like last year when they developed dual-pixel focus and still turned a profit?

And before someone say's that the technology is this year, it is the result of many year's work.....
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tcmatthews

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2013, 10:31:20 PM »


........ Sonys sensor department is healthy, they earn money from the mobile sensors up to 24x36mm
that other departments such as television, consumer electronics, etc. are not going so well is another question ......

Do you have any justification for this statement? or is it just plucked from the depths of your mind?

They sell to everyone -including canon-, they're bound to be profitable.

"Sony, the third largest semiconductor firm in Japan, divides its semiconductor business into in-house use and outside sales. The fourth-quarter revenues from outside sales reached JPY90 billion, representing a sequential increase of 19%. The firm has reported revenue growth for two consecutive quarters and continues to stay in profit."
from :http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20130325PD206.html

Profit is a relative and often misleading term. When you are tens of billions of dollars in debt, a significant portion of which was required to build the fabs that make Sony sensors, as well as put into the R&D and patent purchases...well, profit simply means deferred payments on debt. The electronics divisions of Sony, of which IC fabrication is a part, have been in the red for years. Even if some of the subdivisions are making some money, overall Sony is hemorrhaging from their electronics division (and they STILL have immense piles of debt at high interest rates.)
And don't underestimate the impact of profit on a product line. Take a look at Olympus 4/3 cameras ( 4/3, not micro 4/3). The line was not profitable so they let it drop. If Sony cameras are not profitable, expect to see them dropped.

They were also bankrupt do to corporate mismanagement and were bailed out by Sony. Rumor has it the are calibrating with Sony on a number of things in the medical and imaging departments.  They get Sony sensor and phase detection sensors in the OMD and Olympus helps Sony develop lens and contrast auto-focus etc. 

The rumor is that Olympus wants to re-introduce a pro 4/3 camera next year, along with a pro OMD.  What ever that means.
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Skulker

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2013, 01:18:38 AM »

Ankorwatt specifically claimed the sensor department was healthy. My question was did he have a justification for that claim. I asked for two reasons. First it would be interesting if true as Sony make some good sensors, and maybe they could sell it off if it really was healthy. Although that is unlikely I accept. Secondly Ankorwatt make some claims I find strange to say the least, so I was wondering whether it was worth taking any notice of his claim this time. Normally I find his rants very ignorable.  :)

Ankorwatt may not be wrong. This is an extract of a recent press release of Sony's Corporate Strategy Meeting of 2013 - 


Yes he may be right, that's why I asked him.  ::) ::) it would be nice to hear from him, if he has any support for his claim I'm sure he will reply.

But I hope it's based on something a lot more substantial than a press release from a strategy meeting.  ::)

I gave you a link and you can search there http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.se
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.se/search?q=sony+sensor+sales
http://www.icinsights.com/news/bulletins/CMOS-Image-Sensors-Begin-Breaking-Sales-Records-Again/

1 Omnivision
2 Samsung
3 Sony
4 ST Micro
5 Toshiba
6 Aptina

Aptina and Sony have reached agreements that  they share  65nm production which Sony all ready have  and they will also share  various patents=  exceptional good for one company who works with them both=Nikon.

Let us se when Canon starts to invest any money in new tech and sensor lines to keep up and how it  will affects the camera division's finances

Thanks for the reply ankorwatt. Unfortunately I don't see anything on the links that you gave that gives me any indication that the sensor division is doing better than the rest of Sony's electronics division. Let's face it blogs are not a reliable source of information. Record sales don't mean much, it's profit that matters. The Japanese do take a long term view to business but the problem for Sony is that in the last decade the have lost so much money in electronics. I was hoping maybe someone was offering to buy the division. Think about it. How good would it be if nikon bought it!

But I'm afraid it seems your opinion is based on others blogs and opinions. I was hoping you had some better reason than that for your claim.
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

Zv

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2013, 01:55:02 AM »
An operating loss of ¥229 billion is a lot no matter how well the sensor division is doing. Their imaging dept will likely only make up a small fraction of their entire revenue anyway. It's a shame I like Sony as a company and want them to succeed. They might bounce back with the ps4 since microsoft messed up so badly with the xbox 1.
Move along nothing to see here!

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2013, 01:55:02 AM »

Skulker

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2013, 05:23:02 AM »
Sony are investing  for the future  which impress so much that Eric Fossum has comment  their foreward spirit in competition with other Omnivision, Aptina  etc.  We are here  discussing if Canon are using 180nm tech,  Sony are   at 45nm.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201208/12-107E/index.html

Tell me, what signs are there that Canon has invested big money in new technology to meet  the competition?
You should be more worried about  Canon that have  locked  them selfs  in to a corner like Apple did before they went over to Intel.

Don't get upset ankorwatt. We all know Sony has invested and make good sensors.

But here you are starting off on your anti canon hobby horse. Again. You seem incapable of taking a balanced view. The "proof" of canons investment you ask for is easy for anyone to see. Many people, myself included, think the 1dx is about the best camera out there. Not only have they clearly made investments they have made wise investments as they make money and that is what a business is trying to do.

As ever you are very critical of canon, who incidentally also make very good sensors. You seem hung up on looking for anything that in your opinion shows canon in a bad light. But you should realise that even if canons sensors are not quite as good as Sony's, and that's not definitely right. Canon also make very good cameras and lenses and money.

Overall you should accept that canon has made wise investments and run a successful business. The results speak for themselves, my 1dx is quite capable of producing great images. I'm sure you would not be able to tell the difference if I was using nikon or Sony or pentax.

Why don't you stop being so bitter and negative?
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

eml58

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2013, 05:30:10 AM »
I know I'll regret this, I just Know, But.

Ankorwat, instead of angsting over Sensors and Sony Margins & DR and D800's etc, why don't you take a break, go get that iPhone 4s of yours, and practise taking Sunsets with a straight Horizon, once you get that down pat, progress to bigger Cameras (without a dial tone), with bigger sensors, and ultimately perhaps bigger discussions, and don't worry so much about Sony & their Healthiness, they don't care, they're Happily driving themselves into the Ground.

And Canon don't care what's happening at Sony, Canon are making Money selling all those Crappy cameras with Crappy Sensors with Crap DR, to People like me, and I'm Happy to be buying them.

And Apple don't care either, they're just Happy selling Boat Loads of iPhones for Boat Loads of Profit to Guys just like you & me, only I have the iPhone 5, I think it has a better Sensor than your iPhone 4s it takes Sunsets with a straight Horizon, time to upgrade.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 05:35:11 AM by eml58 »
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Tanja

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2013, 05:34:46 AM »
I know I'll regret this, I just Know, But.

Ankorwat, instead of angsting over Sensors and Sony Margins & DR and D800's etc, why don't you take a break, go get that iPhone 4s of yours, and practise taking Sunsets with a straight Horizon, once you get that down pat, progress to bigger Cameras, with bigger sensors, and ultimately perhaps bigger discussions, and don't worry so much about Sony & their Healthiness, they don't care, they're Happily driving themselves into the Ground.


i wonder... was there not an ignore button?
that ankortwat guy is getting on my nerves.

insanitybeard

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2013, 05:37:42 AM »
Don't get upset ankorwatt. We all know Sony has invested and make good sensors.

But here you are starting off on your anti canon hobby horse. Again. You seem incapable of taking a balanced view. The "proof" of canons investment you ask for is easy for anyone to see. Many people, myself included, think the 1dx is about the best camera out there. Not only have they clearly made investments they have made wise investments as they make money and that is what a business is trying to do.

As ever you are very critical of canon, who incidentally also make very good sensors. You seem hung up on looking for anything that in your opinion shows canon in a bad light. But you should realise that even if canons sensors are not quite as good as Sony's, and that's not definitely right. Canon also make very good cameras and lenses and money.

Overall you should accept that canon has made wise investments and run a successful business. The results speak for themselves, my 1dx is quite capable of producing great images. I'm sure you would not be able to tell the difference if I was using nikon or Sony or pentax.

Why don't you stop being so bitter and negative?

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eml58

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2013, 05:44:55 AM »
I know I'll regret this, I just Know, But.

Ankorwat, instead of angsting over Sensors and Sony Margins & DR and D800's etc, why don't you take a break, go get that iPhone 4s of yours, and practise taking Sunsets with a straight Horizon, once you get that down pat, progress to bigger Cameras, with bigger sensors, and ultimately perhaps bigger discussions, and don't worry so much about Sony & their Healthiness, they don't care, they're Happily driving themselves into the Ground.


i wonder... was there not an ignore button?
that ankortwat guy is getting on my nerves.

But it's Hilarious isn't it ?? I've been sitting here, actually sitting on my Hands to ensure I wouldn't respond, then I did.

I haven't got the foggiest Bloody Clue what the hell he's on about, he may well be right when it comes to Sensors, I actually don't have a clue, and I don't give a flying bread basket, I just Buy the damn Camera, look at the Images I've worked so hard to improve on through adaption and increasing skill levels, and decided that the 5DMKII was pretty damn good, 1DMKIV was Ok, not great, but Ok, 5DMKIII is bloody great with the better autofocus and the 1Dx I currently sleep with, along with my 200-400 (my wife hates sharing), "F" knows what Sensor is in them, but it seems to do the job real well, if you know what to do with it, which is take Images, preferably with straight horizons, as much as possible.

But this Chap just burns me, I'm starting to understand how the Wildebeest feels in my Posts on the 1Dx Image site, why doesn't the Lad head over to Nikon Rumours and complain about Canon Sensors & the great DR on Nikon Sensors et all ?? Oh, that's right, People over there are Nikon Guys using Nikon Gear, no reaction.
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Tanja

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2013, 05:47:21 AM »
Why don't you stop being so bitter and negative?

or use nikon/sony for gods sake.

what do such persons try to achive writting their negative stuff all day on a CANON user forum?
i mean i dont´t get it.

is this some kind of advertising for nikon?
does he think that some people will switch to sony/nikon because of his rabbiting?

does he think canons managers care what he writes here?

really i don´t get how someone rants about ONE topic, all day, 7 days a week.
what a poor life.....  ::) 



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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2013, 05:47:21 AM »

J.R.

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2013, 06:01:58 AM »

But it's Hilarious isn't it ?? I've been sitting here, actually sitting on my Hands to ensure I wouldn't respond, then I did.

 ;D ;D ;D
I took a hiatus from CR for a year and a half. The discussions haven't changed much. Excellent information is still being shared while people bitching about Canon cameras are still bitching and haven't moved on to Sony

The Bad Duck

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2013, 07:53:16 AM »
So, ehm, to sum this thread up so far:
- We have no solid facts that Canon has invested in new tech to make even better cameras.
- We have no solid facts that Canon has NOT invested in new tech to make even better cameras.

This. Is. Canon. Rumors.

Nothing new under the sun, guys, really, chillax :)

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Re: Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2013, 07:53:16 AM »