November 27, 2014, 10:06:08 PM

Author Topic: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]  (Read 46467 times)

jrista

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2013, 11:15:47 PM »
3. As I've said for YEARS: APS-H is dead. Please don't keep resurrecting it.   ::) APS-H is now an unnecessary 'half way house' between APS-C and FF.  The 6D particularly demonstrates that.  Leave it to RIP, please!
 - APS-C for budget sensor, on camera flash, 'reach' (ie pixel density for certain applications - eg birding, some sports), and to make use of the wonderful array of EF-S lenses (many of which are L class in terms of image quality.
 - FF for more depth of field (DOF) control and per pixel sharpness, lower noise, and possibly in the (near) future, an overall much higher resolution photo - already competing with Medium Format.

You can proclaim whatever you want as much as you want. However, that won't change the fact that many of us, myself included, liked the APS-H format! Unlike you, many of us prefer to think of it as a useful half-way house between APS-C and FF. Not everyone wants FF for everything. Don't forget that there is a specific value to a cropped sensor: reach! When reach is one of the most significant factors, yet you want a balance between the often too small/too noisy pixels of APS-C, and the lack of reach of FF...well, APS-H once offered an ideal alternative that offered excellent IQ, superior IQ even, for a middle-ground price point (at least as far as professional-grade equipment goes).

I don't believe that APS-H should be brought back in the 7D II. On the contrary, I like the 7D line's positioning as the professional-grade APS-C part. I would, however, very much like to see something in the $3500-$4000 range bring back the APS-H sensor. Preferably in a 180nm part with something around 4µm pixels, and all the fancy bells ans whistles of the 5D III. The 3D?

Sorry, but I have no interest in letting APS-H rest in peace. I want the zombie back!!! MUHAHAHAHAHAAA!

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2013, 11:15:47 PM »

pj1974

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2013, 11:54:14 PM »
1. I have a marketing degree and background, and agree with kimvette that Canon & Nikon (& Sony) do not 'release a DLSR camera' to match what the competition has put out a month or two before.  Research & Development and then prototype and production for specific significant new technology changes (and incorporating this into any new body) takes huge lengths of time (often years). 

My background is electronics and I work in a R/D centre. most of the projects that I have worked on are in the 3 to 5 year timeframe. I can assure you that putting out a camera in a month is laughable. It would take that long to get the boxes made and print the manuals.

Canon will be working on the next model before the previous one gets to market and will have a study group defining the model after that. They will already be working on the  80D, the 7D3, the 6D2, the 5D4 and 1D? are probably in prototype and they are working on the 5D5 and 1D??

Hi Don

Thanks for posting, also with your experience.

I take it you wrote that to confirm that we agree?! :)  Because we do..... (just wasn't sure if you misunderstood what I posted). 

I also agree - that Canon will already have been working on that list of 'future' cameras: 6DmkII, 80D, 7DmkIII, 5DmkIV

PJ  8)
I'm not a brand-fanatic. What I do appreciate is using my 7D and 350D cameras along with a host of lenses & many accessories to capture quality photos, and share with friends.

pj1974

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2013, 11:59:10 PM »
3. As I've said for YEARS: APS-H is dead. Please don't keep resurrecting it.   ::) APS-H is now an unnecessary 'half way house' between APS-C and FF.  The 6D particularly demonstrates that.  Leave it to RIP, please!
 - APS-C for budget sensor, on camera flash, 'reach' (ie pixel density for certain applications - eg birding, some sports), and to make use of the wonderful array of EF-S lenses (many of which are L class in terms of image quality.
 - FF for more depth of field (DOF) control and per pixel sharpness, lower noise, and possibly in the (near) future, an overall much higher resolution photo - already competing with Medium Format.

You can proclaim whatever you want as much as you want. However, that won't change the fact that many of us, myself included, liked the APS-H format! Unlike you, many of us prefer to think of it as a useful half-way house between APS-C and FF. Not everyone wants FF for everything. Don't forget that there is a specific value to a cropped sensor: reach! When reach is one of the most significant factors, yet you want a balance between the often too small/too noisy pixels of APS-C, and the lack of reach of FF...well, APS-H once offered an ideal alternative that offered excellent IQ, superior IQ even, for a middle-ground price point (at least as far as professional-grade equipment goes).

I don't believe that APS-H should be brought back in the 7D II. On the contrary, I like the 7D line's positioning as the professional-grade APS-C part. I would, however, very much like to see something in the $3500-$4000 range bring back the APS-H sensor. Preferably in a 180nm part with something around 4µm pixels, and all the fancy bells ans whistles of the 5D III. The 3D?

Sorry, but I have no interest in letting APS-H rest in peace. I want the zombie back!!! MUHAHAHAHAHAAA!

:D  Ha ha... you want the zombie back... oh dear... some people have watched too many scary movies... and it's transforming DSLR bodies to 'the walking dead' bodies!! :)

I appreciate many of your posts on CR, jrista... including what you've written earlier in this thread about 7D resolution compared to an older and lower MP 1D.

So while I believe the APS-H is long in the ground - buried... and only to be resurrected via 'zombie power' - I can sympathise & understand that for some photographers, APS-H is their preferred blend / mix.

Having 1 body to cover what you want (or closely what you want) is often more practical than having bodies (2 or more) of both APS-C and FF.

APS-C is what works best for me currently.  Maybe one day APS-C will die....  I'll aim to have enough 'bodies' in my 'cool room' to create enough Frankensteins ... to 'live' for a long time into the future... lol    ;D

Paul

I'm not a brand-fanatic. What I do appreciate is using my 7D and 350D cameras along with a host of lenses & many accessories to capture quality photos, and share with friends.

expatinasia

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2013, 12:04:18 AM »
I would not be surprised to see Canon test the elasticity of past product cycles to discover just how frequently they can update their different models. There is such hunger these days for the latest tech, the newest this and the newest that, that Canon would be silly not to.

I am looking forward to learning about the 7D Mark II, it should be a very exciting camera, but I am also curious as to what they have planned with their flagship pro camera(s). :o
1D X + backup + different L lenses etc.

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2013, 12:51:47 AM »
<p>We’re also told that 2 new “pro” bodies will arrive in 2014, and that doesn’t include the EOS 7D Mark II, which will be a pro specced APS-C camera.</p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>
[/html]

Both FF.
1. One @ extreme high MP(35-40) for landscape and studio shooters
2. The second is extreme low MP (12-18). Use able ISO @ 25000, similiar to current 5D III @ 6400ISO

Everybody HAPPY, Canon gets even more sales and US economy will raise 100%. THE END ;D
I'd be willing to save up for such a beast. But wait, isn't there a similar body out there? Or at least an attempt to it? 1Dx comes close to your rumored specs in your second point. But then, it is way off track budgetwise for me. Anyway, the 5D line will improve as well. My 5D3 is fantastic at ISO 25.600 well exposed: Example from a wedding last saturday. I wasn't the official photographer. Just a happy bystander, taking some candids around midnight... 8)


Z96A5058bBWKlein by Peter Hauri, on Flickr


Z96A5058bKLEIN by Peter Hauri, on Flickr
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 01:32:02 AM by pedro »
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Marsu42

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2013, 05:47:34 AM »
I think moving beyond the sensor that will appear in the next Rebel, an EOS M camera and the EOS 70D is a good idea.

I'd disagree - the 7d1 shows that it doesn't need a better sensor to make a camera that is way above the internal competition, and Canon could charge a big premium just for better af & fw features like now (and that's the reason I've got a 60d :-p).

We’re also told that 2 new “pro” bodies will arrive in 2014, and that doesn’t include the EOS 7D Mark II

So it's the high-mp eos and a 5d4 with a new sensor? 2014 would be the earliest date I'd expect a 5d3 replacement to arrive because Canon wouldn't want to annoy their premium customers, but on the other hand any new sensor tech is bound to make it to ff soon because Nikon currently has an edge here in most specs.

expatinasia

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2013, 06:42:09 AM »
We’re also told that 2 new “pro” bodies will arrive in 2014, and that doesn’t include the EOS 7D Mark II

So it's the high-mp eos and a 5d4 with a new sensor? 2014 would be the earliest date I'd expect a 5d3 replacement to arrive because Canon wouldn't want to annoy their premium customers, but on the other hand any new sensor tech is bound to make it to ff soon because Nikon currently has an edge here in most specs.

Is the 5D pro? Canon officially classifies it as prosumer, and while a lot of pros do use it, I am not sure if it fits into that category.

Two new pro bodies could be the high MP 1D camera and a new pro level cinema body.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 06:43:51 AM by expatinasia »
1D X + backup + different L lenses etc.

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2013, 06:42:09 AM »

nicku

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2013, 06:48:22 AM »
I personally prefer the 20.2 MP sensor vs 24.1... the noise problem can be managed more easy in a smaller pixel density sensor.

I believe the biggest difference between 7Dmk2 and 70D will be the body construction, AF, fps, IQ, and other features, that can justify the price difference.

Don Haines

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2013, 06:55:50 AM »
1. I have a marketing degree and background, and agree with kimvette that Canon & Nikon (& Sony) do not 'release a DLSR camera' to match what the competition has put out a month or two before.  Research & Development and then prototype and production for specific significant new technology changes (and incorporating this into any new body) takes huge lengths of time (often years). 

My background is electronics and I work in a R/D centre. most of the projects that I have worked on are in the 3 to 5 year timeframe. I can assure you that putting out a camera in a month is laughable. It would take that long to get the boxes made and print the manuals.

Canon will be working on the next model before the previous one gets to market and will have a study group defining the model after that. They will already be working on the  80D, the 7D3, the 6D2, the 5D4 and 1D? are probably in prototype and they are working on the 5D5 and 1D??

Hi Don

Thanks for posting, also with your experience.

I take it you wrote that to confirm that we agree?! :)  Because we do..... (just wasn't sure if you misunderstood what I posted). 

I also agree - that Canon will already have been working on that list of 'future' cameras: 6DmkII, 80D, 7DmkIII, 5DmkIV

PJ  8)
I definitly agree.... with the entire post.
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privatebydesign

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2013, 07:20:27 AM »
I know and understand image resolution is a result of system resolution, I just pointed out, with images, the system resolution of an 18MP crop camera is not very much different from a crop from a 21MP FF camera. Again, that is not an argument, it is an empirical observation.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying the original question--"the benefit of megapixels", but all things being equal, more = more.  The rest of this is arguing that all things aren't equal, which is obviously true most of the time.  A 16MP 1Dx just might   ;) take a better picture than Nokia's 41 Mp cell phone camera cropped to 16.  All megapickles are not created equal, but that does not negate the fact that more of "the same" MPs means more freedom for cropping.  If you don't believe me, shoot an image in RAW, then the same image in sRaw, crop a chunk out and see how they look.

It depends how simplistic, or theoretical, you want to get. As usual I just presented some empirical results, that whilst not entirely defying common wisdom and repeated posting history, certainly do throw a spanner in the works of the narrow minded thinking that "more equals more". If you don't believe me conduct a series of tests of same generation crop and ff sensors, like I did. Sure more does equal more, but nothing like everybody expects it to and the test I posted was set up to maximise any and every advantage the 7D might have. Because of these tests I concluded that a 7D was of no use to me whatsoever, even in focal length limited situations.

Again, there are very good reasons to own a crop camera, but thinking you are getting "longer lenses, more reach, greater cropability, etc etc" doesn't actually amount to anything when empirically tested, and maybe that is where I am falling down here, I bothered to actually do the tests rather than rely on common thought, internet chatter and theoretical pontificating.
And if we really want to confuse the issue...... 5D2 vs 60D, both using 70-200 lens, in good daylight... The 60D resolves more detail on distant objects. 60D vs SX-50 in good daylight.... The SX-50 resolves more detail. Now we try the comparison in poor light and high ISO and the 5D2 out resolves the 60D and the 60D out resolves the SX-50. There is no easy answer here, it depends on conditions.

Exactly, and I posted in your SX-50 thread and have linked to it several times. I found, when I actually used an 18mp crop camera and a same generation 21mp ff camera, the 18mp camera realised no noticeable resolution increase despite common wisdom and over twice the pixels in focal length limited situations. Lots of people argue with that, but never present actual images backing up their opinions.

Like I have always said, at 100% and ideal conditions the 7D does have more resolution than a cropped 5D MkII/1Ds MkIII, I found, in actual use, those tiny difference disappeared in real world images. I have yet to be shown a single set of contradictory images.

So if anybody has a set of hand held, AF'd, >400iso, wide open aperture, focal length limited images from a 7D and a 5D MkII/1Ds MkIII, please, post them, I'd be interested to see how much different than my results yours are.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:27:26 PM by privatebydesign »
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schill

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2013, 08:08:29 AM »
1. I have a marketing degree and background, and agree with kimvette that Canon & Nikon (& Sony) do not 'release a DLSR camera' to match what the competition has put out a month or two before.  Research & Development and then prototype and production for specific significant new technology changes (and incorporating this into any new body) takes huge lengths of time (often years). 

My background is electronics and I work in a R/D centre. most of the projects that I have worked on are in the 3 to 5 year timeframe. I can assure you that putting out a camera in a month is laughable. It would take that long to get the boxes made and print the manuals.

Canon will be working on the next model before the previous one gets to market and will have a study group defining the model after that. They will already be working on the  80D, the 7D3, the 6D2, the 5D4 and 1D? are probably in prototype and they are working on the 5D5 and 1D??

I figure the last minute stuff they might do is not in the hardware but in the firmware.  And it may be putting in limitations, not adding features.  Say Canon has created a 7DII that has 14 fps.  Before Canon announces the camera, Nikon announces a comparable camera that has 10 fps.  Canon can now change the firmware to support only 12 fps, still top Nikon, and save some performance for an easy update (new body or new firmware) later if they need it.

Obviously, changing firmware can go either way, but simple things like reducing fps or buffer size are very easy - much easier than improving them if you've already created the "best" firmware you can write at the time.  I used fps in the example because the numbers are easy to work with and the change could be minimal.

And this works if you switch "Canon" and "Nikon" above or change them to any other manufacturer.  You can make your product as good as it needs to be to compete but not better.

Of course, I am looking forward to what Canon has come up with for the 7DII although  I'm still very happy with my 7D (preordered when they announced it (I wanted 8 fps :) ) and just passed 100k images).

Don Haines

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2013, 08:28:21 AM »
1. I have a marketing degree and background, and agree with kimvette that Canon & Nikon (& Sony) do not 'release a DLSR camera' to match what the competition has put out a month or two before.  Research & Development and then prototype and production for specific significant new technology changes (and incorporating this into any new body) takes huge lengths of time (often years). 

My background is electronics and I work in a R/D centre. most of the projects that I have worked on are in the 3 to 5 year timeframe. I can assure you that putting out a camera in a month is laughable. It would take that long to get the boxes made and print the manuals.

Canon will be working on the next model before the previous one gets to market and will have a study group defining the model after that. They will already be working on the  80D, the 7D3, the 6D2, the 5D4 and 1D? are probably in prototype and they are working on the 5D5 and 1D??

I figure the last minute stuff they might do is not in the hardware but in the firmware.  And it may be putting in limitations, not adding features.  Say Canon has created a 7DII that has 14 fps.  Before Canon announces the camera, Nikon announces a comparable camera that has 10 fps.  Canon can now change the firmware to support only 12 fps, still top Nikon, and save some performance for an easy update (new body or new firmware) later if they need it.

Obviously, changing firmware can go either way, but simple things like reducing fps or buffer size are very easy - much easier than improving them if you've already created the "best" firmware you can write at the time.  I used fps in the example because the numbers are easy to work with and the change could be minimal.

And this works if you switch "Canon" and "Nikon" above or change them to any other manufacturer.  You can make your product as good as it needs to be to compete but not better.

Of course, I am looking forward to what Canon has come up with for the 7DII although  I'm still very happy with my 7D (preordered when they announced it (I wanted 8 fps :) ) and just passed 100k images).

Even if it was as simple as changing one variable in one line of code in the firmware, they could not do it in a month,
even if everything else was ready to "pull the trigger"

Nikon releases product....
Canon executives discuss Nikon release.....
Decision is made to change from 14 to 12 frames per second....
30 seconds later, line of code is changed....
manual is edited.... order goes out to print new ones
box graphics are edited, order goes out to print new ones
new boxes and manuals are printed and arrive back at factory.
cameras and manuals are packed into new boxes....
stock is shipped worldwide.....
product is released.....

No way could that be done in a month....
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AprilForever

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2013, 08:42:04 AM »
We’re also told that 2 new “pro” bodies will arrive in 2014, and that doesn’t include the EOS 7D Mark II

So it's the high-mp eos and a 5d4 with a new sensor? 2014 would be the earliest date I'd expect a 5d3 replacement to arrive because Canon wouldn't want to annoy their premium customers, but on the other hand any new sensor tech is bound to make it to ff soon because Nikon currently has an edge here in most specs.

Is the 5D pro? Canon officially classifies it as prosumer, and while a lot of pros do use it, I am not sure if it fits into that category.

Two new pro bodies could be the high MP 1D camera and a new pro level cinema body.

The 7D MK I was pretty pro. The 7D MK II hopefully will be more pro. I think that the sensor should have at least a 2 stop ISO improvement, and there should be better sealing, a MUCH improved grip, and also a third wheel for ISO.
What is truth?

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2013, 08:42:04 AM »

expatinasia

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2013, 08:48:46 AM »
We’re also told that 2 new “pro” bodies will arrive in 2014, and that doesn’t include the EOS 7D Mark II

So it's the high-mp eos and a 5d4 with a new sensor? 2014 would be the earliest date I'd expect a 5d3 replacement to arrive because Canon wouldn't want to annoy their premium customers, but on the other hand any new sensor tech is bound to make it to ff soon because Nikon currently has an edge here in most specs.

Is the 5D pro? Canon officially classifies it as prosumer, and while a lot of pros do use it, I am not sure if it fits into that category.

Two new pro bodies could be the high MP 1D camera and a new pro level cinema body.

The 7D MK I was pretty pro. The 7D MK II hopefully will be more pro. I think that the sensor should have at least a 2 stop ISO improvement, and there should be better sealing, a MUCH improved grip, and also a third wheel for ISO.

Pretty pro?! It is/was a decent camera with good fps, and other features. It never really competed with the 1 series, and the only ever time you would see one on a field/pitch was perhaps, and only perhaps, as a 2nd back up body. Nothing wrong with that.

If they did make a true Pro 7D Mark II H or C in a 1D X body with all the FPS, perhaps even improved this and that etc. I will buy one without a doubt. But I doubt it would be cheap, in fact I would say US$3-4K.  But my money would be on a watered down version of the 1D X, only question is how much water to use?
1D X + backup + different L lenses etc.

schill

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2013, 08:53:30 AM »
1. I have a marketing degree and background, and agree with kimvette that Canon & Nikon (& Sony) do not 'release a DLSR camera' to match what the competition has put out a month or two before.  Research & Development and then prototype and production for specific significant new technology changes (and incorporating this into any new body) takes huge lengths of time (often years). 

My background is electronics and I work in a R/D centre. most of the projects that I have worked on are in the 3 to 5 year timeframe. I can assure you that putting out a camera in a month is laughable. It would take that long to get the boxes made and print the manuals.

Canon will be working on the next model before the previous one gets to market and will have a study group defining the model after that. They will already be working on the  80D, the 7D3, the 6D2, the 5D4 and 1D? are probably in prototype and they are working on the 5D5 and 1D??

I figure the last minute stuff they might do is not in the hardware but in the firmware.  And it may be putting in limitations, not adding features.  Say Canon has created a 7DII that has 14 fps.  Before Canon announces the camera, Nikon announces a comparable camera that has 10 fps.  Canon can now change the firmware to support only 12 fps, still top Nikon, and save some performance for an easy update (new body or new firmware) later if they need it.

Obviously, changing firmware can go either way, but simple things like reducing fps or buffer size are very easy - much easier than improving them if you've already created the "best" firmware you can write at the time.  I used fps in the example because the numbers are easy to work with and the change could be minimal.

And this works if you switch "Canon" and "Nikon" above or change them to any other manufacturer.  You can make your product as good as it needs to be to compete but not better.

Of course, I am looking forward to what Canon has come up with for the 7DII although  I'm still very happy with my 7D (preordered when they announced it (I wanted 8 fps :) ) and just passed 100k images).

Even if it was as simple as changing one variable in one line of code in the firmware, they could not do it in a month,
even if everything else was ready to "pull the trigger"

Nikon releases product....
Canon executives discuss Nikon release.....
Decision is made to change from 14 to 12 frames per second....
30 seconds later, line of code is changed....
manual is edited.... order goes out to print new ones
box graphics are edited, order goes out to print new ones
new boxes and manuals are printed and arrive back at factory.
cameras and manuals are packed into new boxes....
stock is shipped worldwide.....
product is released.....

No way could that be done in a month....

I agree.  I never said it could be done in a month.

Anyway, I was thinking "last minute before they commit to the final design/configuration [1]" and not "last minute before I walk into B&H and pick one up."

[1] after which they would print manuals/boxes, etc.

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2013, 08:53:30 AM »