September 16, 2014, 01:02:45 AM

Author Topic: EOS-M sharper than 6D?  (Read 10260 times)

ND40

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 05:05:54 PM »
You shot in JPG. That's the Error here.

OK, I repeated the pictures of the clock in RAW.  I converted as a batch in DPP with all the default settings.  There is less difference here.

(1) M, AF
(2) 6D, AF
(3) 6D, MF live view

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 05:05:54 PM »

bholliman

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 745
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2013, 06:56:35 PM »
Surprising!  I know the M takes great pictures, but mine is not as good as my 6D. 

The last two 6D shots show that you might benefit from running AFMA on your 6D and lens, the live view manual focus is slightly sharper than the AF, but AF is not always dead-on.  You would need to take more pictures to check both precision and accuracy of AF.
Bodies:  6D, EOS-M (22/2 and 18-55)
Lenses: Rokinon 14mm 2.8, 35mm 2.0 IS, 85mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8L IS Macro, 135mm 2.0L, 24-70mm 2.8L II, 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, Extenders: EF 1.4xIII, EF 2xIII ; Flash: ST-E3-RT, 600EX-RT (x3)

tpatana

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2013, 06:59:21 PM »
Can you do following:

A: Confirm that you took everything on tripod with remote trigger, and/or using fast enough SS that it doesn't matter?

B: Tell the settings for all shots (SS, Aperture, ISO, focus mode)

C: Take shots at same equivalent distance/focal length/aperture, e.g. if you shoot M@22 (x1.5), then shoot both at the 33mm, and e.g. F8.0.

It does sound there might be something wrong with your 6D, but taking some more extra tests might be able to resolve what's going on in there.

ND40

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2013, 08:10:30 PM »
A: Confirm that you took everything on tripod with remote trigger, and/or using fast enough SS that it doesn't matter?

B: Tell the settings for all shots (SS, Aperture, ISO, focus mode)

C: Take shots at same equivalent distance/focal length/aperture, e.g. if you shoot M@22 (x1.5), then shoot both at the 33mm, and e.g. F8.0.

It does sound there might be something wrong with your 6D, but taking some more extra tests might be able to resolve what's going on in there.

Thanks for the suggestions.

A.  I did all these with a monopod, didn't have a tripod available.  All at 1/250 or faster, so should be OK with a monopod.  That said, I think I'll do more testing tomorrow on a tripod with a wireless trigger.

B. I kept this as much the same as I could.  I don't have the values now as I won't be at home until tomorrow.  But approximately 1600 ISO for the clock shots and ISO200 for the fire hydrant.  1/250 at f4. 

C.  I used the 135 f2 lens for all these comparisons, so FOV is different, but I wanted to keep the glass the same to take that out of the equation.  I did similar test with my 24-105 f4 with similar results.

This is kind of upsetting as I paid nearly $2k for the 6D and have higher expectations for IQ than I do for my $299 M.

BozillaNZ

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2013, 08:22:40 PM »
There is no point comparing two different format with different pixel density if you use the same lens and at same shooting distance: The denser sensor will give you more detail in the same real world area.

Now try to frame the same shot, by choosing a longer focal length on 6D and compare the results. M @ 24mm f4, vs 6D @ 38mm f6.3, Now who's sharper?
1Ds2,1Ds3,24L II,35L,85L II,EF 50 1.4
Tokina 16-28,24-70L II,70-200L IS II,1.4x II
www.flickr.com/photos/bozillanz/

spinworkxroy

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2013, 10:41:12 PM »
I have a funny feeling the high ISO NR settings were set differently on both cameras..
The M should have the same IQ as a 650D since it's the same sensor..
The 6D being a FF camera should be better than the M..

ND40

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2013, 05:42:46 PM »
Now try to frame the same shot, by choosing a longer focal length on 6D and compare the results. M @ 24mm f4, vs 6D @ 38mm f6.3, Now who's sharper?

Good point.  I re-did the test using a borrowed 70-200 2.8 II lens for both shots.  See below.

I have a funny feeling the high ISO NR settings were set differently on both cameras..
The M should have the same IQ as a 650D since it's the same sensor..
The 6D being a FF camera should be better than the M..

I was thinking the same thing.  I shot the 2nd and 3rd set of pictures in RAW so the JPG settings  (like high ISO NR, sharpening, white balance, etc.) difference between the two cameras would not affect the outcome.  RAW converted to highest resolution JPG in Canon Digital Photo Professional in batch mode (all settings the same).

Test #3.  Same lens, EF 70-200 2.8 II IS, RAW

(1) EOS-M, 125mm, 1/160, f4.5, ISO100, flexizone single, on monopod
(2) EOS-6D, 200mm, 1/1500, f2.8, ISO400, AF, on monopod

I intentionally used a higher ISO on the 6D shot so I could use a faster shutter speed to minimize effects of camera shake on the monopod, so if anything the 6D should have an advantage there.

The white balance was messed up on the shot from the M, but I don't have access to Lightroom or other software to correct it.  DPP probably can do this, but I'm not familiar with it.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2013, 05:42:46 PM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14349
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2013, 05:53:33 PM »
I have a funny feeling the high ISO NR settings were set differently on both cameras..
The M should have the same IQ as a 650D since it's the same sensor..
The 6D being a FF camera should be better than the M..
I was thinking the same thing.  I shot the 2nd and 3rd set of pictures in RAW so the JPG settings  (like high ISO NR, sharpening, white balance, etc.) difference between the two cameras would not affect the outcome.  RAW converted to highest resolution JPG in Canon Digital Photo Professional in batch mode (all settings the same).

If the in-camera settings were different, you've still got an issue (as the WB shows).  DPP respects and applies the in-camera JPG settings, so unless you went in and actually changed all settings to be identical in DPP (which you didn't, at least not WB), you still don't have a good test. But at least all you need to do is go back and reprocess the RAWs.
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

BozillaNZ

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2013, 07:07:57 PM »
Test #3.  Same lens, EF 70-200 2.8 II IS, RAW

(1) EOS-M, 125mm, 1/160, f4.5, ISO100, flexizone single, on monopod
(2) EOS-6D, 200mm, 1/1500, f2.8, ISO400, AF, on monopod

I intentionally used a higher ISO on the 6D shot so I could use a faster shutter speed to minimize effects of camera shake on the monopod, so if anything the 6D should have an advantage there.

The white balance was messed up on the shot from the M, but I don't have access to Lightroom or other software to correct it.  DPP probably can do this, but I'm not familiar with it.

Oh noes, you are doing it wrong, M should use lens wide open @ f2.8 to match 6D's stopped down DoF @ f4.5.

1/160 vs 1/1500? That's more that 3 stops difference in shutter speed!

Other than that, I think your 6D is messy at pixel level. My previous 1DsII gives pixel-sharp images and looks nothing like the image you posted.

If you are still keen to do comparisons,  try those parameters:

M: Av, 100mm, f2.8, ISO 100
6D: Av, 160mm, f4.5, ISO 250

At those settings pointing to the same scene, the shutter speed should be within +/- 0.6ev range.

Remember to turn sharpness settings to middle for both.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 07:10:23 PM by BozillaNZ »
1Ds2,1Ds3,24L II,35L,85L II,EF 50 1.4
Tokina 16-28,24-70L II,70-200L IS II,1.4x II
www.flickr.com/photos/bozillanz/

ND40

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2013, 09:09:02 AM »
If the in-camera settings were different, you've still got an issue (as the WB shows).  DPP respects and applies the in-camera JPG settings, so unless you went in and actually changed all settings to be identical in DPP (which you didn't, at least not WB), you still don't have a good test. But at least all you need to do is go back and reprocess the RAWs.

try those parameters:

M: Av, 100mm, f2.8, ISO 100
6D: Av, 160mm, f4.5, ISO 250

Remember to turn sharpness settings to middle for both.

Sorry, I got in a hurry and messed this up.  The WB on the M was set to Tungsten in my last post.
Here is another try.  WB set to daylight for both.  Sharpness settings in the middle for both.  EF 70-200 2.8 II lens used for both shots, RAW processed in DPP as a batch with all default settings.  100% crops of JPG.

(1) M: Av, 100mm, f2.8, ISO 100
(1) 6D: Av, 160mm, f4.5, ISO 250

Thanks again for all the help!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 09:10:47 AM by ND40 »

Swphoto

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 128
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2013, 09:11:04 AM »
Did you use manual focus on the last shots? With 10x live view?

skycolt

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2013, 09:56:21 AM »
You shot in JPG. That's the Error here.

OK, I repeated the pictures of the clock in RAW.  I converted as a batch in DPP with all the default settings.  There is less difference here.

(1) M, AF
(2) 6D, AF
(3) 6D, MF live view

This means that you need AFMA. live view and view finder shooting use different AF mechanism where the first one is more precise if the AF is not well calibrated.

ND40

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2013, 10:38:46 AM »
Did you use manual focus on the last shots? With 10x live view?

No, this was an AF (single point) shot.  I did some other shots with live view and manual focus and they looked similar.  I'll post one this afternoon for comparison.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2013, 10:38:46 AM »

Swphoto

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 128
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2013, 10:40:48 AM »
No, this was an AF (single point) shot.  I did some other shots with live view and manual focus and they looked similar.  I'll post one this afternoon for comparison.

If that's how properly focused shots look, it appears that something is wrong with your camera.

ND40

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2013, 10:41:02 AM »
This means that you need AFMA. live view and view finder shooting use different AF mechanism where the first one is more precise if the AF is not well calibrated.

I've done AFMA with Reikan Focal Pro with every lens/body combination I own.  W=0, T+1 on the 70-200 and 0,0 with the 24-105.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS-M sharper than 6D?
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2013, 10:41:02 AM »