September 23, 2014, 12:39:00 PM

Author Topic: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops  (Read 31404 times)

verysimplejason

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2013, 03:34:33 AM »
If you really want to have 14 stops of DR... just buy a D800.

Yup.   Also buy some expensive Nikon lenses to take advantage of D800, and get some harddisks also.  While you're at it, you may want to upgrade your desktop/laptops also.  If you're doing video, get ready for some very good amount of Moire.  Sounds great...

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2013, 03:34:33 AM »

Zv

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2013, 03:47:15 AM »
If you really want to have 14 stops of DR... just buy a D800.

Yup.   Also buy some expensive Nikon lenses to take advantage of D800, and get some harddisks also.  While you're at it, you may want to upgrade your desktop/laptops also.  If you're doing video, get ready for some very good amount of Moire.  Sounds great...

 ;D I like the "just get a D800" like it's no big deal. Yeah forget that Toyota corolla just get a Lambo! 
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wockawocka

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2013, 04:55:59 AM »
If you really want to have 14 stops of DR... just buy a D800.

Not with those tiny pixels, thank you. I edited 1500 images from one the other day and I wasn't impressed.
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photonius

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2013, 05:03:48 AM »
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<p><strong>From Magic Lantern<br />

</strong>The Magic Lantern team is letting the world know that they are at the beginning of a new function for the 5D Mark III and EOS 7D. Apparently they’ve figured out a way to boost dynamic range by 3 stops by using a new way of making a photograph by using ISO 100 for some of the vertical lines and ISO 1600 for the rest of it. Sounds wild to us, not sure how they’re doing that. There will be a process to combining the lines of 100/1600 ISO to give you the full resolution file.</p>
<p><strong>From Alex at ML</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><em>Works for both photos and raw videos on Canon EOS 5D Mark III. On Canon EOS 7D, photo only (since it can’t do raw video).</em></li>
<li><em>What are the benefits? more dynamic range (less shadow noise).</em></li>
<li><em>The functionality was not really in Canon firmware, but in the chip that samples the sensor. Canon firmware does not make any use of it (they just set both ISO “registers” to the same value). It was implemented on the hardware side though (and that’s why it works only on these 2 cameras, because only they have two ISO amplifiers).</em></li>
</ul>
<p><strong><a href=\"http://blog.planet5d.com/2013/07/magic-lantern-improves-canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-dynamic-range-to-14-stops-major-landmark/\" target=\"_blank\">Read more at Planet5D</a> | <a href=\"http://www.magiclantern.fm/\" target=\"_blank\">Visit Magic Lantern</a></strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>


What nobody seems to comment upon is what this could imply for future products from Canon.
First, even in existing 8 channel bodies (7D, 5DIII), Canon already implemented the possibility to have two different exposures in separate columns.

Now, we know that Canon just released a new sensor in the 70D, with two photosites under each pixel. And
for the Phase-detect on Sensor, they can read each one separately.

So, everything seems to be in place that for a new 7D II Canon could implement this technology to increase the dynamic range of their camera, i.e. expose one half site with one ISO, and the other with a higher ISO - then combine the information. Because all this happens under one microlens, all the subsequent algorithms (demosaicism etc.) work just as before, and don't need to be implement de novo as for this Magic lantern solution.
Ergo, it should be possible to get something like a 14 stop DN camera from Canon. I hope they get their algorithms done to implement this, the hardware seems to have the potential to do it.

As pointed out, these ideas are not new, having been around for more than a decade, see page 15 ff.
http://www-isl.stanford.edu/~abbas/group/papers_and_pub/chiao_thesis.pdf



verysimplejason

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2013, 05:21:44 AM »
It seems that apart from 5D Mark III and 7D, we've got another candidate.

http://www.canon.co.uk/Images/EOS_70D_Tech_Explained-v1_0_tcm14-1066504.pdf

"The EOS 70D features a new 20.2 MP APS-C CMOS sensor that provides a balance of
increased resolution and low noise performance. This enables the capture of the widest
range of scenes and high-resolution prints, with low-noise images and a wide native
ISO speed range of 100–12800 that is expandable to 25600. A high-speed 14-bit signal
conversion combines with Canon’s DIGIC 5+ image processor for smooth tonal
gradations and natural colours. An eight-channel read-out also supports high speed
shooting of up to seven frames per second (fps) at full resolution. "

September isn't too far, isn't it?

infared

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2013, 05:47:41 AM »
Sounds interesting.  But I have a dumb question (never used ML before).  Where is the link to the actual firmware file for the DR "upgrade"?

ML's download site has the latest 7D firmware from Dec. 2012.  I read the post and checked the .pdf... didn't see anything or links to the file in there.

You have to build it yourself.
Here is the code: https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/commits/all

If that is too much for you. Here is a link of it already built. Built by the magic lanterns forum member 'Lourenco'
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7QlH_BH2m32aWFxbm9DNkliS0E&usp=sharing
The second link is for the 5D3 files


OK..I am just a photographer ...not a code writer.  Is this DR  revelation something that the average person can safely load onto their $3500 camera body without damaging it...or is this something that is proposed for a future release of Magic Latern that we all can use?
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GDub

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2013, 09:33:13 AM »
Sounds interesting.  But I have a dumb question (never used ML before).  Where is the link to the actual firmware file for the DR "upgrade"?

ML's download site has the latest 7D firmware from Dec. 2012.  I read the post and checked the .pdf... didn't see anything or links to the file in there.

You have to build it yourself.
Here is the code: https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/commits/all

If that is too much for you. Here is a link of it already built. Built by the magic lanterns forum member 'Lourenco'
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7QlH_BH2m32aWFxbm9DNkliS0E&usp=sharing
The second link is for the 5D3 files


OK..I am just a photographer ...not a code writer.  Is this DR  revelation something that the average person can safely load onto their $3500 camera body without damaging it...or is this something that is proposed for a future release of Magic Lantern that we all can use?

The short answer is that if you don't know what you're doing you should wait until the DR feature is built into a stable ML release. Also note that the current "alpha" release for the 5D Mark III requires the older 1.1.3 firmware. For myself, I WILL NOT be loading ML into my Mark III until they release an alpha version that works with the current firmware, but I'm really looking forward to that day! Why? Because I've been running the stable version on my T2i for quite a while now and it has some GREAT features--for video and stills.

FTR, I'll quote myself here from my earlier answer to your question...

The Magic Lantern forum thread discussing this (read it carefully):

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7139.0

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2013, 09:33:13 AM »

clicstudio

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2013, 09:42:58 AM »
Dynamic range is Probably more Important to me than noise reduction or pixel count.
I think the way to do this is to split the sensor into highlights and shadows...
I rather have an 8mp 16-stop split sensor, than a 16mp one with less DR.
It can be done.
It is interesting that most HDR cameras take 3 exposures but nobody thought about changing the ISO Instead.
I believe in pushing things to the limit and opening up the possibilities of a device...
Like my jailbroken iPhone 5. Which is amazingly more useful and fun than the limited iOS from apple.


Kudos to magic lantern!
Keep up the great work!

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2013, 09:56:39 AM »
Pretty neat that they're working on it, and will check it out further once a final version is out and long time testing has run its course. I'll be a beta tester for LR 5 but not something that can potentially fry my sensor... :)

infared

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2013, 10:02:38 AM »
Sounds interesting.  But I have a dumb question (never used ML before).  Where is the link to the actual firmware file for the DR "upgrade"?

ML's download site has the latest 7D firmware from Dec. 2012.  I read the post and checked the .pdf... didn't see anything or links to the file in there.


You have to build it yourself.
Here is the code: https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/commits/all

If that is too much for you. Here is a link of it already built. Built by the magic lanterns forum member 'Lourenco'
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7QlH_BH2m32aWFxbm9DNkliS0E&usp=sharing
The second link is for the 5D3 files


OK..I am just a photographer ...not a code writer.  Is this DR  revelation something that the average person can safely load onto their $3500 camera body without damaging it...or is this something that is proposed for a future release of Magic Lantern that we all can use?

The short answer is that if you don't know what you're doing you should wait until the DR feature is built into a stable ML release. Also note that the current "alpha" release for the 5D Mark III requires the older 1.1.3 firmware. For myself, I WILL NOT be loading ML into my Mark III until they release an alpha version that works with the current firmware, but I'm really looking forward to that day! Why? Because I've been running the stable version on my T2i for quite a while now and it has some GREAT features--for video and stills.

FTR, I'll quote myself here from my earlier answer to your question...

The Magic Lantern forum thread discussing this (read it carefully):

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7139.0

GD thanks for the explanation. That clears up a lot of confusion for this non-programmer still photographer.
I will not be attempting this unless it is included in an updated ML release that is compatible with current 5DMarkIII firmware.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 10:07:49 AM by infared »
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michi

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2013, 10:02:54 AM »
This is nothing real new and have been discussed at DPR years ago.

This document presents a sensor scanning trick that results in significant dynamic range im- provements, at the cost of vertical image resolution and aliasing, especially in highlights and shadows. The ISO (analog amplification) is alternated for every two scanlines, between two user-defined values (say ISO 100/1600), so half of the image is exposed for highlights and the other half is exposed for shadows.

Not sure what point you are trying to make.  This feature hasn't been implemented yet. I would say that alone is new and newsworthy. A document released years ago doesn't do us photographers in the field any good...

RGF

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2013, 11:22:44 AM »
Great job ML.

But it´s a shame that Canon is not able to improve their products.

Because of course they have never improved their products. ::) there is no improvement ever in any product they produce.

This is a really ground breaking innovation.  Does not happen often.   I am not surprised that an outsider created it; they need to do something different to make a living.  Canon can continue with incremental improvements and be dumb, fat, and happy  ::)

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2013, 03:47:02 PM »
Dynamic range is Probably more Important to me than noise reduction or pixel count.
I think the way to do this is to split the sensor into highlights and shadows...
I rather have an 8mp 16-stop split sensor, than a 16mp one with less DR.
It can be done.
It is interesting that most HDR cameras take 3 exposures but nobody thought about changing the ISO Instead.
I believe in pushing things to the limit and opening up the possibilities of a device...
Like my jailbroken iPhone 5. Which is amazingly more useful and fun than the limited iOS from apple.


Kudos to magic lantern!
Keep up the great work!

Just curious since I have a iPhone 5. How to jailbreak it, and what is the added benefits?
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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2013, 03:47:02 PM »

poias

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2013, 06:30:51 PM »
Dynamic range is Probably more Important to me than noise reduction or pixel count.
I think the way to do this is to split the sensor into highlights and shadows...
I rather have an 8mp 16-stop split sensor, than a 16mp one with less DR.
It can be done.
It is interesting that most HDR cameras take 3 exposures but nobody thought about changing the ISO Instead.
I believe in pushing things to the limit and opening up the possibilities of a device...
Like my jailbroken iPhone 5. Which is amazingly more useful and fun than the limited iOS from apple.


Kudos to magic lantern!
Keep up the great work!

why not 36Mp and the best DR ?

D800/E is already 36Mp with 14.5 stop DR... without the ISO tricks

Famateur

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2013, 07:52:15 PM »
This is nothing real new and have been discussed at DPR years ago.

This document presents a sensor scanning trick that results in significant dynamic range im- provements, at the cost of vertical image resolution and aliasing, especially in highlights and shadows. The ISO (analog amplification) is alternated for every two scanlines, between two user-defined values (say ISO 100/1600), so half of the image is exposed for highlights and the other half is exposed for shadows.

Not sure what point you are trying to make.  This feature hasn't been implemented yet. I would say that alone is new and newsworthy. A document released years ago doesn't do us photographers in the field any good...

LOL...yeah. We've known about cold fusion on paper for a long time. When some physicists finally pull it off?

"Meh...we've known about that for decades."  ::)

A project like Magic Lantern is a great example of enthusiasts making a good thing even better -- for the sake of making it better. I applaud the work they're doing. They're like hot-rodders trying to squeeze every ounce of torque and horsepower out of the engine they've got...and then letting everyone drive it.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 07:54:15 PM by Famateur »

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Re: Magic Lantern Improves 5D Mark III Dynamic Range to 14 Stops
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2013, 07:52:15 PM »