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Author Topic: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]  (Read 32313 times)

Marsu42

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2013, 10:22:01 AM »
Maybe it escaped your notice - there are two 1D named products right now: the 1D X and the 1D C.

Some people would argue that these two camera models are essentially the same product with an added heatsink and modified fw :-p

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2013, 10:22:01 AM »

jrista

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2013, 10:38:39 AM »
Don't forget the 70D.   This may be a 37.5 Mp camera with dual pixels.   Use different exposures on each half-site, and you get expanded DR 14bit or 16 (like the ML trick).

Canon could also bin the pixels normally, but for tele, if cropping is desired, the unbined version could be selected (sort of like the Nokia purview).

Another alternative is lens correction. Due to the high sampling, distortion, CA, etc. can be corrected first with little loss before downsampling for storage.

Lots of things that can be done.

You would never really be able to "unbin", as the pixel halves are each under a single microlens and color filter. There wouldn't really be any point, since you would have two halves of gree, two halves of red, two halves of blue. That would create a real oddity for digital interpolation, assuming you could get any benefit at all.

The term MegaPixel usually refers to output image pixels, not photodiode count. Keep in mind, there are usually more real "pixels" in a sensor than can be counted from the output image anyways, and have been for some time. For example, an 18mp sensor usually has nearly 20mp actual pixels. It just doesn't seem logical for Canon to start counting their half pixels used for AF...



By my calculations, a 75mp FF sensor would be 10600x7050 pixels in size, with 3.4 micron pixels. That is actually not all that bad. That is similar to a 24mp APS-C sensor in size (which is very interesting...would make sense if Canon has already produced a prototype 24mp 7D II sensor.)

I really don't see how Canon could keep using a 500nm FSI sensor design with 3.4 micron pixels. Given they have a patent for a BSI design for APS-C and FF, I wonder if these two sensors are using the same architecture.
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Pi

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2013, 11:55:24 AM »
Shoot mRAW or sRAW, problem solved.

DxO will not process mRAW & sRAW files. According to their support, it's because those formats miss some information the software requires.

Do not use DXO then.

BTW, if they want to survive, they would have to support mRAW and sRAW.

Pi

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2013, 12:02:31 PM »
Very interesting. I just hope that one of the big MP cameras we keep hearing about comes with 16-bit DR. I can care less about any camera with more than 40MP and doesn't have 16-bit DR...
If you can care less, then why don't you ? ;)

As far as 16-bits....now that is something I could not care less about. Because 16 bits will not give you more DR. Just bigger files with the extra bits quantizing noise.

14 bits will do just fine.
actually......
A pixel produces an analog signal that is relative to the amount of light it has been exposed to. That analog signal is sampled by a D/A converter and becomes a digital number. The number of bits of resolution of the D/A converter is the upper limit of the DR of the camera. If you have a 12 bit D/A, the best dynamic range possible under ideal conditions is 12 stops. If you want 16 stops, you need 16 bit D/A and that means 16 bit RAW files.

Dynamic range of a pixel is not the same as DR of an image. When the pixel count increases, the number of bits can drop without a loss. If 16 bits "were needed" now (many would argue that with the high read noise, they were NOT), 14 bit would be enough with the new sensor. With a "zillion" mp sensor, 1 bit would be sufficient.

Ellen Schmidtee

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2013, 12:15:31 PM »
Shoot mRAW or sRAW, problem solved.

DxO will not process mRAW & sRAW files. According to their support, it's because those formats miss some information the software requires.

Do not use DXO then.

BTW, if they want to survive, they would have to support mRAW and sRAW.

A. You're missing my point.

B. If someone gifted me a 75MP camera tomorrow morning, I would paint it blue and throw it into the sea.

tiger82

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2013, 12:26:31 PM »
Woo-hoo, 1DX price drops for sure as first adopters rush to buy the latest and dump their 1DX's
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poias

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2013, 01:09:50 PM »
Shouldn't Canon be creating something greater than 23 megapixels before jumping with the big boys?

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2013, 01:09:50 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2013, 01:11:26 PM »
Shouldn't Canon be creating something greater than 23 megapixels before jumping with the big boys?

Yeah, because they didn't already create (your word) a 120 MP APS-H sensor...   ::)

BTW, who are the 'big boys'?  There's only one for FF...and it's not Nikon.
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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2013, 01:23:27 PM »
Could be a foveon type sensor - could each photo sensor thrice, once for each color.

Just another crazy idea based upon no info but typical of how the industry plays games with marketing claims.

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2013, 01:26:19 PM »
ummm... the way i see it... i should buy some of western digital, seagate, etc stocks as if this rumor comes true LOL

You'd be better off to invest in Lexar or Sandisk.  There is no profit in the old rotating disk technology, and  while Samsung makes great SSD's (so does Micron), its just a miniscule part of Samsung's total business, tripling their profit on CF and SD cards would not even show on their bottom line.

Lee Jay

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2013, 01:37:11 PM »
Shoot mRAW or sRAW, problem solved.

mraw and sraw are very poor implementations.  The DNG spec with its lossy-compressed raw mode is much better.  It's still demosaiced like mraw and sraw but it's in object space (like full raw and unlike mraw and sraw), it's linear (like full-raw) and it can be any resolution up to and including full resolution, yet reduced in size by a factor of 3 or more even at the same resolution.  Reduce the resolution by a factor of 2 in each direction and compress this way and the file sizes are reduced by more than a factor of 10.

Lee Jay

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2013, 01:43:39 PM »
Ugh, with a RAW file size of what? 120MB?

So?  Storage is cheap, and my computers are fast.  ;)

Storage isn't cheap.  It's cheaper than it's ever been, but it's not cheap.

Sure, you can get a 3TB hard drive for $120.  Let's call it 4 cents a gig.

But that's not the whole story.

Many of us have recycled our last desktop computers ever.  All my desktops, at work and at home, are now laptops.

To get some storage capacity, I went for larger, more expensive machines with two internal hard drive slots.  Each hard drive costs about twice as much - 8 cents a gig.

For backup, I have two machines.  So we're up to 16 cents a gig.

I also keep two external backups on large external drives, one at home, one at work.  So we're up to 24 cents a gig.

I shot 700 shots on Sunday (yesterday).  At around 7 images a gig, this would mean I'd have used 100GB yesterday, or 0.24*100GB = $24.  That's more than I would typically spend on film in one day when I was shooting that way (typically two rolls a day at $10 each including processing).

So, while we may get a lot more than in the film days, I wouldn't call storage cheap in the context of digital shooting styles and when you include modern computers, storage, and backups.

Now, shooting JPEG L/M on my 20D is cheap, at about 1000 shots per gigabyte (yesterday cost me 17 cents).  Raw on a 75MP camera?  Nope, not cheap at all.

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2013, 02:15:45 PM »
Don't forget the 70D.   This may be a 37.5 Mp camera with dual pixels.   Use different exposures on each half-site, and you get expanded DR 14bit or 16 (like the ML trick).

Canon could also bin the pixels normally, but for tele, if cropping is desired, the unbined version could be selected (sort of like the Nokia purview).

Another alternative is lens correction. Due to the high sampling, distortion, CA, etc. can be corrected first with little loss before downsampling for storage.

Lots of things that can be done.

You would never really be able to "unbin", as the pixel halves are each under a single microlens and color filter. There wouldn't really be any point, since you would have two halves of gree, two halves of red, two halves of blue. That would create a real oddity for digital interpolation, assuming you could get any benefit at all.
No, the latter two examples would refer to a full 75Mp sensor, not a 70D type sensor, of course you can't unbin that.
The idea is for normal use you "bin" your 75mp sensor to 35, or 18mp, for file storage. If you want ultimate reach for tele, you keep 75mp (and can crop), or canon even provides a crop mode (like nikon does for aps-c lenses).





By my calculations, a 75mp FF sensor would be 10600x7050 pixels in size, with 3.4 micron pixels. That is actually not all that bad. That is similar to a 24mp APS-C sensor in size (which is very interesting...would make sense if Canon has already produced a prototype 24mp 7D II sensor.)

I really don't see how Canon could keep using a 500nm FSI sensor design with 3.4 micron pixels. Given they have a patent for a BSI design for APS-C and FF, I wonder if these two sensors are using the same architecture.

yes, I agree, it seems unlikely a 500nm FSI design.

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2013, 02:15:45 PM »

c.d.embrey

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2013, 02:16:27 PM »
NO INTEREST!! Canon seems to be doing their very best to make me switch camera companies :( But that's OK, cameras are just tools, and I always use the best tool for my paying jobs. When I need 75+ megapixels for a job, I'd prefer to shoot MFD :)

fisico

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2013, 02:18:17 PM »
Canon needs to improve the signal-to-noise ratio of their sensors dramatically before packing 75 MP onto one.  With everything except AF and shooting speed, the 5D Mk III is merely a minimal improvement over the 5D Mk II.  Across the ISO spectrum, there is still lots of shadow noise to get rid of.  So my hope is that they overhaul everything else before adding pixels.

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Re: Canon Testing a 75+ Megapixel EOS-1 Body? [CR1]
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2013, 02:18:17 PM »