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Author Topic: Guess what?  (Read 6732 times)

EOBeav

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2013, 03:26:19 PM »
Use a leaf shutter, problem solved.

I've heard of those, but that's not really an option in a 5DmkII.
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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2013, 03:26:19 PM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2013, 03:32:31 PM »
Leaf shutters have their own issues. People that think they give true sync at high speeds don't understand how they work. They are not a panacea they are an effective second aperture.
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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2013, 07:00:14 PM »
Leaf shutters have their own issues. People that think they give true sync at high speeds don't understand how they work. They are not a panacea they are an effective second aperture.

Yeah because I remember vividly of how well my 35mm cams true sync @ 1/800th.  ::)

privatebydesign

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2013, 07:25:39 PM »
This series of videos gives a best case scenario, and aptly demonstrates that leaf shutters act as second apertures at high sync speeds.

http://petapixel.com/2013/05/07/a-slow-motion-look-at-the-fujifilm-x100s-shutter-speeds-and-syncing/

Remember three things, first, the X100S is designed from the word go to do this, and it fakes it somewhat by not energising the sensor for the first half of the shutter travel (effectively it has an electronic first curtain), any camera not designed with an electronic first or second curtain can't get close to this efficiency; second, when a leaf shutter acts as a second aperture you lose flash power; third, your flash t1 times become critical, don't think about using a small flash at full power because it isn't fast enough to get the light out there, studio strobes are very slow, with some t1 times as slow as 1/60 second.

Of course there are options to get light out at high speeds, but they all cost good money, even Einsteins aren't cheap if you have to gang them because they only do a full power t1 of 1/666. A leaf shutter is not a panacea to high speed sync issues.
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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2013, 08:28:06 PM »
This series of videos gives a best case scenario, and aptly demonstrates that leaf shutters act as second apertures at high sync speeds.

http://petapixel.com/2013/05/07/a-slow-motion-look-at-the-fujifilm-x100s-shutter-speeds-and-syncing/

Remember three things, first, the X100S is designed from the word go to do this, and it fakes it somewhat by not energising the sensor for the first half of the shutter travel (effectively it has an electronic first curtain), any camera not designed with an electronic first or second curtain can't get close to this efficiency; second, when a leaf shutter acts as a second aperture you lose flash power; third, your flash t1 times become critical, don't think about using a small flash at full power because it isn't fast enough to get the light out there, studio strobes are very slow, with some t1 times as slow as 1/60 second.

Of course there are options to get light out at high speeds, but they all cost good money, even Einsteins aren't cheap if you have to gang them because they only do a full power t1 of 1/666. A leaf shutter is not a panacea to high speed sync issues.

Cutting ambient foremost is why we sync at these speeds. Flash power at those speeds is secondary to cutting ambient light. Add less flashes by cutting ambient, otherwise have fun shooting through 3 stop NDs. Getting the sync at all is what matters.

Like mr. Hobby lighting a group shot in broad daylight with two sb900s. Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter.

privatebydesign

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2013, 12:18:38 AM »

Like mr. Hobby lighting a group shot in broad daylight with two sb900s. Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter.


If you mean this shot

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2013/05/leaf-shutter-nd-flash-fuji-x100s.html

that is not difficult, just put both flashes on full power, as opposed to one, sync at 1/250 and go to iso 100 (he used 200) both at f8. Simple. You would lose a fraction of a stop of separation, but nothing dramatic. If you weren't worried about the f8 then it would be even easier and you could match the separation perfectly.
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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 08:23:56 AM »

Like mr. Hobby lighting a group shot in broad daylight with two sb900s. Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter.


If you mean this shot

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2013/05/leaf-shutter-nd-flash-fuji-x100s.html

that is not difficult, just put both flashes on full power, as opposed to one, sync at 1/250 and go to iso 100 (he used 200) both at f8. Simple. You would lose a fraction of a stop of separation, but nothing dramatic. If you weren't worried about the f8 then it would be even easier and you could match the separation perfectly.

I guess the point flew over again. Don't you love quotes taken out of context? :P

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 08:23:56 AM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2013, 01:40:03 PM »

Like mr. Hobby lighting a group shot in broad daylight with two sb900s. Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter.


If you mean this shot

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2013/05/leaf-shutter-nd-flash-fuji-x100s.html

that is not difficult, just put both flashes on full power, as opposed to one, sync at 1/250 and go to iso 100 (he used 200) both at f8. Simple. You would lose a fraction of a stop of separation, but nothing dramatic. If you weren't worried about the f8 then it would be even easier and you could match the separation perfectly.

I guess the point flew over again. Don't you love quotes taken out of context? :P

Seeing as how I quoted your entire paragraph, and you are the one who loves to selectively/out of context quote me, I must be honest and say I am amused by your response. Given up on the technical side have we? Realised you are talking rubbish, yet again? What exactly was your point?

But lets take a minute here, you said "Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter." How am I wrong to give you the settings for a focal plane shutter to get exactly the same image?

I own three leaf shutter equipped lenses, I use them, I understand them, I know what they can do and what they can't do. Leaf shutters have their uses, but they are no panacea to high sync speeds as is so often implied in threads like this, there are far more considerations to take into account, things like shutter travel speed, actual sync actuation timing (ever wonder why leaf shutter lenses normally have several sync options?), aperture used, flash t1 and t5 times, flash power needed etc etc. It is not a case of if you have a leaf shutter turn on a flash and fire at 1/1000 or more, it just isn't that simple.

But back to the selective or out of context quoting, here is a test for you that you should smoke, seeing as how you regularly lambast me for having made a supporting comment, which of these is shot at f2.8 and which is shot at f5.6?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:41:52 PM by privatebydesign »
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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2013, 01:56:22 PM »

Like mr. Hobby lighting a group shot in broad daylight with two sb900s. Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter.


If you mean this shot

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2013/05/leaf-shutter-nd-flash-fuji-x100s.html

that is not difficult, just put both flashes on full power, as opposed to one, sync at 1/250 and go to iso 100 (he used 200) both at f8. Simple. You would lose a fraction of a stop of separation, but nothing dramatic. If you weren't worried about the f8 then it would be even easier and you could match the separation perfectly.

I guess the point flew over again. Don't you love quotes taken out of context? :P

Seeing as how I quoted your entire paragraph, and you are the one who loves to selectively/out of context quote me, I must be honest and say I am amused by your response. Given up on the technical side have we? Realised you are talking rubbish, yet again? What exactly was your point?

But lets take a minute here, you said "Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter." How am I wrong to give you the settings for a focal plane shutter to get exactly the same image?

I own three leaf shutter equipped lenses, I use them, I understand them, I know what they can do and what they can't do. Leaf shutters have their uses, but they are no panacea to high sync speeds as is so often implied in threads like this, there are far more considerations to take into account, things like shutter travel speed, actual sync actuation timing (ever wonder why leaf shutter lenses normally have several sync options?), aperture used, flash t1 and t5 times, flash power needed etc etc. It is not a case of if you have a leaf shutter turn on a flash and fire at 1/1000 or more, it just isn't that simple.

But back to the selective or out of context quoting, here is a test for you that you should smoke, seeing as how you regularly lambast me for having made a supporting comment, which of these is shot at f2.8 and which is shot at f5.6?

That's a lie. Re-read this portion you omitted...

"Cutting ambient foremost is why we sync at these speeds. Flash power at those speeds is secondary to cutting ambient light. Add less flashes by cutting ambient, otherwise have fun shooting through 3 stop NDs. Getting the sync at all is what matters. "

privatebydesign

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2013, 02:02:36 PM »
Dude, not only can you not tell the difference between a 135 f2 and a 100 f2.8, or the difference between f2.8 or f5.6, but now you show us you can't tell the difference between a paragraph and a complete post.

I have nothing more to say to you, ignorance is bliss and I'd hate to awaken you from your blissful state.
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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2013, 02:06:47 PM »
Dude, not only can you not tell the difference between a 135 f2 and a 100 f2.8, or the difference between f2.8 or f5.6, but now you show us you can't tell the difference between a paragraph and a complete post.

I have nothing more to say to you, ignorance is bliss and I'd hate to awaken you from your blissful state.

I enjoy popping bubbles with real photography. Please do tell me how I know nothing about sync speed my friend.  ;)

The point seems to have flew past you again...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 02:23:17 PM by RLPhoto »

docholliday

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2013, 02:55:59 PM »
Leaf shutters have their own issues. People that think they give true sync at high speeds don't understand how they work. They are not a panacea they are an effective second aperture.

Huh? Ignoring the stupid strobist videos that are diluted at best...I think you need to learn and actually use a leaf shutter. A 1/1000s leaf is completely open and exposes the entire frame 'sync'ronously for the flash exposure to fire. The 'second aperture' comment only applies on cameras where a shutter is augmented by the sensor for capture. Look at the original 1Ds - 1/500 because the CCD could start and stop listening to data faster than the focal plane shutter.

Before you give ME a "I own and use 3 leaf shutter lenses"...maybe you should try shooting medium and large format - all my Hasselblads and Schneider lenses (many more than 3) say that you're not truly comprehending why a leaf is important when balancing ambient and flash. Go push some real power on the flash side (not some strobist < 250w/s - I'm talking 5000+ w/s for large groups outdoor) and see why you need a leaf.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 02:58:15 PM by docholliday »

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2013, 02:56:49 PM »
OK, in the hope that you might realise something I am going to try one more time.

You said "Lol if you attempted that with a focal shutter. " I took that to mean you didn't think that shot could be taken with the equipment to hand with a focal plane shutter equipped camera.

Hobby's ambient exposure was 1/500, iso 200 @f8, my suggestion to replicate that with a slower sync speed was 1/250, iso 100 @f8, that gives exactly the same ambient exposure. No killing needed, the ambient is exposed exactly the same with both the leaf shutter and the focal plane shutter equipped bodies. Now as I said the flash exposure, the separation, is slightly different, his flash exposure is one flash 1/1 one flash 1/4 power, iso 200 and f8, mine is both flashes 1/1 iso 100 and f8, that means the flash exposure is around 1/3 stop different. Doesn't that prove your hyperbole to be incorrect? You can take that shot with a focal plane shutter, you implied you couldn't.

Are there shots you can take with a leaf shutter that you can't take with a focal plane shutter? YES, but the example you held up is not one of them.

As to your example image. To me it shows a certain youthful exuberance, the kind of image you will look back on in a few years and think 'How could I mess up my exposure so badly? Why would I show that to anybody? Thank god I got better.'

I am sure you will say it looks better in real life, that the clients loved it, that the burnt out edges are not burnt out on the file etc etc. But if that is the best example you can produce to demonstrate balancing light sources you have a long way to go, my friend.

As for saying you know nothing about sync speed, I never did say such a thing, I just demonstrated that you know nothing about the practical use of leaf shutters and high sync speeds, and there is a subtle difference in the two.
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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2013, 02:56:49 PM »

docholliday

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2013, 03:00:28 PM »
As for saying you know nothing about sync speed, I never did say such a thing, I just demonstrated that you know nothing about the practical use of leaf shutters and high sync speeds, and there is a subtle difference in the two.

Huh, again? There is a major difference between using a leaf and HS. Go try shooting a race car with HS and see how your image looks compared to one burst of full power from a 2400w/s strobe using a leaf.

privatebydesign

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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2013, 03:18:26 PM »
Leaf shutters have their own issues. People that think they give true sync at high speeds don't understand how they work. They are not a panacea they are an effective second aperture.

Huh? Ignoring the stupid strobist videos that are diluted at best...I think you need to learn and actually use a leaf shutter. A 1/1000s leaf is completely open and exposes the entire frame 'sync'ronously for the flash exposure to fire. The 'second aperture' comment only applies on cameras where a shutter is augmented by the sensor for capture. Look at the original 1Ds - 1/500 because the CCD could start and stop listening to data faster than the focal plane shutter.

Before you give ME a "I own and use 3 leaf shutter lenses"...maybe you should try shooting medium and large format - all my Hasselblads and Schneider lenses (many more than 3) say that you're not truly comprehending why a leaf is important when balancing ambient and flash. Go push some real power on the flash side (not some strobist < 50w/s) and see why you need a leaf.

Maybe you should get some facts straight too. The 1Ds has a CMOS sensor, the 1D has a CCD, I know, I have one.

Second, that is not how leaf shutters work, they open sequentially (basically but not entirely) from the center out, and then close in the reverse order, from outside to center, the second aperture is totally relevant, the Fuji halves this effect because it has an electronic first curtain, it doesn't start exposing the sensor until the shutter is completely open, if the senor does not have an electronic first and/or second curtain then it is reacting to light as the shutter opens and/or closes.

My three lenses are medium format!

As for flash power, tell me your t1 times. You might realise there is no difference between the light on the subject at full power and quarter power over 1/750 sec sync speed or so. PCB Einsteins are very fast but look at the graph, and comparison, here, under the Comparison Data tab. http://www.paulcbuff.com/e640.php


YET AGAIN, there are good reasons for leaf shutters, but the way they are talked about in threads like these makes them sound like panaceas for flash use, as I keep saying, they are not, they have their limitations, and it is surprising how close to focal plane shutter sync speeds those limitations start kicking in.
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Re: Guess what?
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2013, 03:18:26 PM »