October 23, 2014, 01:40:50 PM

Author Topic: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?  (Read 6951 times)

scottkinfw

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2013, 02:36:28 AM »
This is a coincidence, as I was looking for something to shoot Saturday and went to a ladies roller derby championship.  It was great fun, and I got to learn a lot.  I have never shot sports or indoors like this before.

I was shooting with my 5D3, and mostly with my 600-EX-RT flash.  I'll post some unaltered pics for you to look at, near and far.

first is iso 2000 70 mm f 3.5 1/400 from 24-70 2.8 II
sek Cameras: 5D III, 5D II, EOS M  Lenses:  24-70 2.8 II IS, 24-105 f4L, 70-200 f4L IS, 70-200 f2.8L IS II, EF 300 f4L IS, EF 400 5.6L, 300 2.8 IS II, Samyang 14 mm 2.8 Flashes: 580 EX II600EX-RT X 2, ST-E3-RT
Plus lots of stuff that just didn't work for me

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2013, 02:36:28 AM »

scottkinfw

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2013, 02:38:18 AM »
Here is another one, same settings, only a bit farther away.  On blowing up, grain/noise is very apparent.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 02:40:32 AM by scottkinfw »
sek Cameras: 5D III, 5D II, EOS M  Lenses:  24-70 2.8 II IS, 24-105 f4L, 70-200 f4L IS, 70-200 f2.8L IS II, EF 300 f4L IS, EF 400 5.6L, 300 2.8 IS II, Samyang 14 mm 2.8 Flashes: 580 EX II600EX-RT X 2, ST-E3-RT
Plus lots of stuff that just didn't work for me

scottkinfw

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2013, 02:43:27 AM »
Finally, this one is at 1600 iso and should be better on that front alone (59mm f 3.5 1/400).

Next time out, I will open up f stop more to blur out background and try to lower iso.  On cleaning up and shrinking images, results look good.

Anyway, hope this helps.

sek
sek Cameras: 5D III, 5D II, EOS M  Lenses:  24-70 2.8 II IS, 24-105 f4L, 70-200 f4L IS, 70-200 f2.8L IS II, EF 300 f4L IS, EF 400 5.6L, 300 2.8 IS II, Samyang 14 mm 2.8 Flashes: 580 EX II600EX-RT X 2, ST-E3-RT
Plus lots of stuff that just didn't work for me

pedro

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2013, 04:52:46 AM »
Well, quite a while ago I took a picture of my (now late) cat earlier this year. Available light fingering into the dorm while it sat on the bed. ISO 51k, RAW. The animal was hardly visible, had to focus at the white parts of its ears. First photograph without NR, second with NR. Well exposed to right. Wide open.


Shooting my Cat at ISO 51k by Peter Hauri, on Flickr
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 04:55:15 AM by pedro »
30D, EF-S 10-22/ 5DIII, 16-35 F/2.8 L USM II, 28 F/2.8, 50 F/1.4, 85 F/1.8, 70-200 F/2.8 classic,
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jdramirez

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2013, 06:54:43 AM »
I was using the 5D mkiii, a 70-200mm f/2.8L IS mkii, and a 580exii speedlite... I was half bouncing light off of the rink's ceiling and half bouncing it off the built in card of the 580. 

I shoot with exactly the same equipment, EXCEPT I never use the built in card of 580, which is tiny.  I highly recommend large bounce cards which are cheap and really help push "half" the light forward, which the tiny card is not even close to doing.  All the other stuff about shutter speed, ISO are good advice also. 

If all fails, a good noise reduction program like Imagenomic NoiseWare Pro or Neat Image NR can save the day.

I just upgraded to the 580 about a week an a half ago.  I have
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003UOIMBW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A35Z38INQ6BCGI

in my shopping cart, but I just need to pull the trigger.  I was making do.  And the ceiling I was bouncing off of was only 10 to 15 feet high and slanted towards my subject.  And this was before using lightroom.  I know how to save the photo, but I was just surprised at the amount of noise at 2500. 
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L->85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm ->100L & 85L

jdramirez

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2013, 07:01:50 AM »
Finally, this one is at 1600 iso and should be better on that front alone (59mm f 3.5 1/400).

Next time out, I will open up f stop more to blur out background and try to lower iso.  On cleaning up and shrinking images, results look good.

Anyway, hope this helps.

sek

I dont' know why I was thinking I needed to be around 1/1000 to freeze roller skating.  I guess I was doing some math in my head that a person on roller skates would be traveling faster than little kids running on the football field. 
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L->85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm ->100L & 85L

privatebydesign

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2013, 08:29:19 AM »

I dont' know why I was thinking I needed to be around 1/1000 to freeze roller skating.  I guess I was doing some math in my head that a person on roller skates would be traveling faster than little kids running on the football field.

Don't forget in this situation, where you have a low ambient light level and you are using flash, it is the pulse of the flash that effectively becomes your shutter speed. Think of this situation, in a totally dark room with a flash light, open the shutter with B, so it just stays open, as there is no light the shutter time becomes ineffective, it is how long you turn the flashlight on for that determines your exposure. Same thing is happening once you are killing your ambient exposure at the roller rink. In HSS, anything over 1/200, your flash will pulse for the entire exposure, it doesn't send out one burst but many little ones, once you go below 1/200 you just get the one burst and so your subject shutter speed becomes the flashes pulse duration.

To gauge exposure, meter the scene without the flash on, say it is 1/50 @ f2.8 and iso 400, once you go two or three stops under that the ambient becomes less and less effective. Set your camera to 1/200 @f2.8 and iso 400 and the flash will become the effective shutter speed for the subject, the ambient will fall a little less than two stops under exposed though the flash will bring it up, but you will have zero noise and much more dynamic range, you will also put your daughter into some context as the background will be visible but not distracting.

You don't need to buy anything for shooting where you did, the Rouge is great and I have the larger version, but with 10' ceilings you don't need it.
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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2013, 08:29:19 AM »

jdramirez

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2013, 10:34:25 PM »

I dont' know why I was thinking I needed to be around 1/1000 to freeze roller skating.  I guess I was doing some math in my head that a person on roller skates would be traveling faster than little kids running on the football field.

Don't forget in this situation, where you have a low ambient light level and you are using flash, it is the pulse of the flash that effectively becomes your shutter speed. Think of this situation, in a totally dark room with a flash light, open the shutter with B, so it just stays open, as there is no light the shutter time becomes ineffective, it is how long you turn the flashlight on for that determines your exposure. Same thing is happening once you are killing your ambient exposure at the roller rink. In HSS, anything over 1/200, your flash will pulse for the entire exposure, it doesn't send out one burst but many little ones, once you go below 1/200 you just get the one burst and so your subject shutter speed becomes the flashes pulse duration.

To gauge exposure, meter the scene without the flash on, say it is 1/50 @ f2.8 and iso 400, once you go two or three stops under that the ambient becomes less and less effective. Set your camera to 1/200 @f2.8 and iso 400 and the flash will become the effective shutter speed for the subject, the ambient will fall a little less than two stops under exposed though the flash will bring it up, but you will have zero noise and much more dynamic range, you will also put your daughter into some context as the background will be visible but not distracting.

You don't need to buy anything for shooting where you did, the Rouge is great and I have the larger version, but with 10' ceilings you don't need it.

We have 2 skating rinks and 4 roller skating rinks.  The one we are going to be at is going to be 30ish foot ceilings... so I'm probably going to hire one of the brothers of the girls attending for $20 and he'll hold the rouge, the 580, and a transciever... and maybe... just maybe I'll get some decent side lit shots. 

Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L->85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm ->100L & 85L

privatebydesign

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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2013, 01:31:47 PM »
jd,

In your situation I would start with these settings.

One 580 on camera as master (group A) with the big rouge, one 580 in assistants hand in group B zoomed to 24mm. Camera in M, flash in ETTL.

Set the camera to 1/100, f4, iso 200. Set flash to A:B 1:4, this puts group B at two stops brighter than group A and FEC at -1. Get your assistant in a position to create rim light, that is at an angle further away than your daughter and pointing at her but out of frame to your left or right.

Take a shot. If the subject is too bright adjust FEC down or visa versa, if the background is too bright raise shutter speed or again visa versa. If the rim is too bright in relation to the main adjust the A:B ratio, with Canon this means 1:1 is equal, A:B 1:2 is one part of light to A and two parts to B, B is twice as bright as A. The ETTL is taking care of different subject distances.

This should give you a good starting point and the right way to adjust to where you want.
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Re: 5d mkiii, grain in low-light - Am I just asking for too much?
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2013, 01:31:47 PM »