April 18, 2014, 08:50:18 PM

Author Topic: My dead 5D Mark III Story  (Read 11454 times)

Viggo

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2013, 09:04:35 AM »
I moved to Canon from Nikon in early 2012. I have shot exactly 50 weddings plus assorted other shoots over the last year an 1/2 with my pair of 5DIII's. The very first wedding it was raining all day. Most weddings are dry but I have had many weddings on hot days including an all outdoor weddings at 110 degrees. Talk about a lot of sweat! Never had any problem with either camera. When I am not shooting, I keep the camera's and lenses in a roller bag. I occasionally toss into the bag those little silica packets to keep the air in the bag dry. 

Here is a shot from the very first wedding that I did as a Canon shooter, yes that was rain I was shooting in....

Seriously nice image  :D
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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2013, 09:04:35 AM »

michi

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2013, 10:34:18 AM »
Do I remember reading a story somewhere that some batches of Canon equipment were exposed to high humidity during transport to the US and ended up corroding later, but the owners being told it's water damage caused by the owner?

Maybe something like that going on?

Well my mk3 was bought in the US. In my opinion I think it was sweat since the frame had salt on it from the inside.

Dr.Jones - I'm really sorry since your repair is more expensive than mine. But yes it's silly that a 3500$ camera can die like this...

Buying a 1D is to much for me. The 5Dmk3 is an awesome camera and it fits my needs perfectly, it really fell in my eyes since it died like this... :-\

I read through your original post again.  What was the time span from the "sweaty wedding" to the camera failing to the service center sending you the pics?  I'm not an expert, but if we are talking a week here, I don't think you get that green type of corrosion in that short of a timeframe.  My gutt feeling says there was a prior issue.

crank47

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2013, 10:53:20 AM »
I read through your original post again.  What was the time span from the "sweaty wedding" to the camera failing to the service center sending you the pics?  I'm not an expert, but if we are talking a week here, I don't think you get that green type of corrosion in that short of a timeframe.  My gutt feeling says there was a prior issue.

The wedding was on saturday, monday I took it to a service centre in my country and they send me the pictures and the damage report (they did not know the story or what happened to the body, I didn't know what happened till they told me), a week later I drove to Austria and took the body to the main CPS service partner there. They send me a email with the similar damage report and the same faulty part list.  2 repair centres, same story -  Damage from salt or mineral water corrosion.
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clostridium

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2013, 11:08:46 AM »
I'm inclined to agree with dgatwood's post - the damage pattern is a bit odd. 

Disclaimer - even though I have an engineering degree I'm no expert on these matters aside from the expertise one obtains from surfing the net for information on this topic.  A few materials science courses does not necessarily confer expertise.  What we need is someone who works in electronics repair to weight in on this issue.  Or ask someone from Lensrentals or one of the rental sites what they think.  They are a great source for information about equipment failing.

Now that the disclaimer is out of the way:

The fluid had to have some sort of electrolytes in it (like sweat or salt water) to cause that corrosion appearance.  That makes condensation pretty unlikely.  The damage pattern also doesn't fit with condensation as dgatwood points out - see this link for a picture of what condensation damage looks like in electronics http://www.multisorb.com/files/9113/4315/2180/article-moisture-in-electronics.pdf

So let's say sweat traveled through a seal and dripped down to that location.  It seems strange that the damaged area isn't either a lot smaller or a lot bigger.  If a sweat droplet got in you'd think that it would have traveled farther than just that little spot.  There is zero apparent additional evidence of corrosion damage on that picture that I can see.

There is a joint that runs to the right of the info button and then curves below it that would be just above this site they have pictured.  The fluid seems like it would have to come through that spot or perhaps through the power switch and/or mode dial. 

Giving the repair center the benefit of the doubt - maybe the seal was bad?  How do you hold the camera - i.e. where is your left hand with respect to that part of the camera?  I would expect that the biggest sweat issues would be more on the right side where you are gripping the camera tightly. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 03:19:15 PM by clostridium »

unfocused

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2013, 12:40:53 PM »
I'm in the skeptical crowd.

Not doubting your story and not even doubting the service center's claim that it was water damage.

But, I just keep thinking of the millions of sweaty summer tourists carrying rebels all over the world and wondering, if this could happen to you, why wouldn't it have happened thousands of times before with cameras that are much less well-sealed?

I strongly suspect that there was something else that was the cause. As others have suggested, it could even be something that happened before you owned the camera – maybe as far back as the production line. I think the fact that the camera happened to quit working when it did may be just a coincidence.
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dgatwood

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2013, 10:53:32 PM »
So let's say sweat traveled through a seal and dripped down to that location.  It seems strange that the damaged area isn't either a lot smaller or a lot bigger.  If a sweat droplet got in you'd think that it would have traveled farther than just that little spot.  There is zero apparent additional evidence of corrosion damage on that picture that I can see.

And if a sweat droplet got in, then the seals were bad to begin with.  That's a manufacturing defect, and they're legally required to fix it, including any additional damage arising out of that defect, period.  This isn't even a grey area....

drjlo

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2013, 01:51:35 AM »
I haven't tried with my 5D III, but with my old Canon S95 and Rebels, I used to see a lot of condensation on screens and lenses as I came out of AC'd hotels to warm tropical outdoors.  I now keep them in air-tight plastic bags, with as much air squeezed out as possible with some silica dry packs inside, doing my best NOT to take them out until camera temperatures at least partially catch up to outside temperatures. 

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2013, 01:51:35 AM »

Valvebounce

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2013, 04:53:55 AM »
I see no evidence of moisture damage in that photograph.  There's some gunk on the metal frame, but that looks more like glue that holds rubber seals in place than oxidation damage.  Titanium dioxide is white, not black or green.  However, if the metal frame is corroded, I suspect that it was corroded before they assembled the camera at the factory, because I see no evidence of water damage to the electronics at all in that photo.

Hi dgatwood, I just checked specs, as I thought the body is quoted as made from magnesium, however pure magnesium is highly reactive and is quoted in one article as "not generally used for construction" no idea whether that means cameras or not!

It states that most likely it is an alloy of magnesium which would generally corrode to a gray film coating but should be protected by a surface treatment.

It also states that corrosion due to pure water increases With temperature, no mention of what temperature, but it also says the alloy is not structurally affected until temperatures of 95 to 120C.

The greenish colour would indicate to me a compound involving copper was involved and as this is on the body of magnesium that would be unlikely so I guess that just adds to the confusion, I would think it is unlikely to be contamination from copper of the pcb as that is lacquered over to prevent corrosion so we are left with plated contacts to corrode.

Also as I have said in previous posts part of my expertise is classic cars, I have bolts of approximately 40 years of age that have been left in containers that have collected water sufficient to cause a tide line. Yes some of the bolts have rusted, generally those with tool damage that has damaged the plating, but many have survived so clean they look like new. It is so unusual to find tool damage on fixings inside modern electronics that I would not be surprised to see no corrosion on the screws.

However having said all that I am with every one on your main points that it should/could not have happened so quickly and that it could have been either sweat or condensation "pure water".

Most of all I would think that this could be a warranty situation as a seal failure would seem to be a real likely cause of this.

My deepest sympathy for your situation.

Cheers Graham.




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Kristofgss

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2013, 06:13:11 AM »
It also states that corrosion due to pure water increases With temperature, no mention of what temperature, but it also says the alloy is not structurally affected until temperatures of 95 to 120C.

Quick rule of reaction speed is an increase of speed at a  factor 2  for every ten degrees Kelvin (or Celcius) rise in temperature. So the hotter something is, the faster the chemical reaction will work (which you can experiment with by washing dishes in hot water vs cold water)

Pure water is less corrosive than water with salt as well (which also is a better conductor of electricity, increasing the chance of short-circuits)

dgatwood

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2013, 11:07:31 AM »

It states that most likely it is an alloy of magnesium which would generally corrode to a gray film coating but should be protected by a surface treatment.

I'd expect it to be coated either way, which makes corrosion even less plausible.



The greenish colour would indicate to me a compound involving copper was involved and as this is on the body of magnesium that would be unlikely so I guess that just adds to the confusion, I would think it is unlikely to be contamination from copper of the pcb as that is lacquered over to prevent corrosion so we are left with plated contacts to corrode.

...which are all either gold plated or tinned with solder.  Either way, there's no exposed copper.  BTW, where do you see green?  The only green I see is pretty clearly glue placed there to hold a ribbon cable into one of those shove-in connectors.



Also as I have said in previous posts part of my expertise is classic cars, I have bolts of approximately 40 years of age that have been left in containers that have collected water sufficient to cause a tide line. Yes some of the bolts have rusted, generally those with tool damage that has damaged the plating, but many have survived so clean they look like new. It is so unusual to find tool damage on fixings inside modern electronics that I would not be surprised to see no corrosion on the screws.

Bolts used in cars are plated specifically because the products are designed to live outdoors and are designed to be repairable.  I would not expect screws in consumer electronics to be plated because neither of those is the case.  :D  My refrigerator, for example, had small screws that rusted because of condensation, to such a degree that I had to drill the heads.  Hard to say for sure, though, whether these screws are plated or not.

Valvebounce

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2013, 01:17:03 PM »
Hi again,

I did state "should be treated."

I did state "we are left with plated contacts to corrode."

Where I thought I saw green other than the blob of glue type stuff is on the body casting edge to the right of the provided image, I have now given it a more thorough look and see it is just as likely to be a lighting artefact as corrosion.

Personally I have never found a threaded fastner in a product that does not have some surface treatment, sometimes only light or substandard! :o
It would not make sense for a manufacturer to use untreated fastners and end up with rejects due to corrosion. Furthermore if we wanted untreated screws to plate in house where I worked they were special order and worked out dearer than chemically stripping and plating from stock.


I understand that automotive fastners are plated to withstand the elements. However I doubt periodical prolonged immersion in water containing many and varied contaminants was ever envisioned and I don't think they were meant to last 40 years. Anyway my main point was the time that undamaged plating can survive, and to discredit the notion of the corrosion appearing in a weekend! ::)

Basically I think we concur on this situation. :)

Cheers Graham.


It states that most likely it is an alloy of magnesium which would generally corrode to a gray film coating but should be protected by a surface treatment.

I'd expect it to be coated either way, which makes corrosion even less plausible.



The greenish colour would indicate to me a compound involving copper was involved and as this is on the body of magnesium that would be unlikely so I guess that just adds to the confusion, I would think it is unlikely to be contamination from copper of the pcb as that is lacquered over to prevent corrosion so we are left with plated contacts to corrode.

...which are all either gold plated or tinned with solder.  Either way, there's no exposed copper.  BTW, where do you see green?  The only green I see is pretty clearly glue placed there to hold a ribbon cable into one of those shove-in connectors.



Also as I have said in previous posts part of my expertise is classic cars, I have bolts of approximately 40 years of age that have been left in containers that have collected water sufficient to cause a tide line. Yes some of the bolts have rusted, generally those with tool damage that has damaged the plating, but many have survived so clean they look like new. It is so unusual to find tool damage on fixings inside modern electronics that I would not be surprised to see no corrosion on the screws.

Bolts used in cars are plated specifically because the products are designed to live outdoors and are designed to be repairable.  I would not expect screws in consumer electronics to be plated because neither of those is the case.  :D  My refrigerator, for example, had small screws that rusted because of condensation, to such a degree that I had to drill the heads.  Hard to say for sure, though, whether these screws are plated or not.
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tpatana

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2013, 02:50:54 PM »
Pure water is less corrosive than water with salt as well (which also is a better conductor of electricity, increasing the chance of short-circuits)

[nitpick]Pure water doesn't conduct electricity[/nitpick]

The OP story is interesting. I'd hate for such to happen for me, so I'm really curious if they'll find the root cause for what has happened.

I don't believe on the sweat, I'd be much more inclined for condensation due to the temperature changes.

AlanF

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2013, 04:02:14 PM »
It also states that corrosion due to pure water increases With temperature, no mention of what temperature, but it also says the alloy is not structurally affected until temperatures of 95 to 120C.

Quick rule of reaction speed is an increase of speed at a  factor 2  for every ten degrees Kelvin (or Celcius) rise in temperature. So the hotter something is, the faster the chemical reaction will work (which you can experiment with by washing dishes in hot water vs cold water)

Pure water is less corrosive than water with salt as well (which also is a better conductor of electricity, increasing the chance of short-circuits)

A factor of 2 in rate for an increase of 10 oC is for a reaction which is relatively fast, such as an enzyme catalysed reaction in a cell with an activation energy of about 12.5 kcal/mol (~52 kJ/mol). A slower reaction with a higher activation energy would increase a factor of 4 or 5 or more with a 10 oC rise in T.
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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2013, 04:02:14 PM »

dgatwood

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2013, 11:19:53 PM »
I understand that automotive fastners are plated to withstand the elements. However I doubt periodical prolonged immersion in water containing many and varied contaminants was ever envisioned and I don't think they were meant to last 40 years. Anyway my main point was the time that undamaged plating can survive, and to discredit the notion of the corrosion appearing in a weekend! ::)

In much the same way as I would not expect the (almost certainly coated) magnesium frame to corrode in a weekend, and for the same reason.  The point I was trying to make was that if one corrodes, I'd expect the other to corrode under similar circumstances, and if only one is corroded, that probably means it was corroded before they put in the screws.  ;)


Basically I think we concur on this situation. :)

Yes.

crank47

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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 06:34:23 AM »
Just to post a update. Got my mk3 from the service centre. It's working like before and back in my backpack. But my wallet is lighter for 750euro + travel expense  :D Well I guess I learned a lesson the hard way.

Thank you all for your opinion guys!
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Re: My dead 5D Mark III Story
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 06:34:23 AM »