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Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« on: September 08, 2011, 09:02:20 AM »
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<strong>Sony, Panasonic & Olympus knocking at the door</strong>

Bloomberg has written anÂ&nbsp;interestingÂ&nbsp;article the higher ups at Canon have certainly taken notice of. That being their dropping marketshare in Japan along with Nikon to the mirrorless segment.</p>
<p>I haven’t had a problem with Canon being last to the game. I don’t personally like any of the true mirrorless options (you don’t count M9), none of them feel like cameras to me. Lots of people do though, and that’s cool. I was eager to see what Nikon came up with, thoughÂ&nbsp;<a href="http://nikonrumors.com/2011/08/18/nikons-mirrorless-not-a-pro-camera-but-with-few-very-innovative-features.aspx/">it doesn’t look too exciting to me</a>.</p>
<p>I’ve always thought if Canon was going to get into it, they’d go all in. We’d see 3 mirrorless camera bodies, one high end mirrorless, a Canon M9 if you will (not a rangefinder). A prosumer middle camera body for the 5D user who wants IQ and portability, and then an entry level variant for the people that want more than a “G”.</p>
<p>I could be dreaming, or wishing. I’d just like to think Canon would be the company that did it right.</p>
<p><strong>From Bloomberg</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>Canon Inc. and Nikon Corp. the world’s two biggest makers of high-end cameras, may be missing out on the industry’s biggest technology shift since film rolls became obsolete.</p>
<p>The two Tokyo-based companies use mirrors in all cameras with interchangeable lenses, a technique Sony Corp. (6758) is shifting away from. As a result, Canon and Nikon’s combined share of the Japanese market has fallen by 35 percent, while Sony’s share has doubled, according to estimates at research firm BCN Inc.</p></blockquote>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-07/canon-clinging-to-mirrors-means-opportunity-for-sony-cameras.html">Read More</a></strong></p>
<p><strong></strong><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 10:17:52 AM by neuroanatomist »
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Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« on: September 08, 2011, 09:02:20 AM »

bchernicoff

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 10:02:30 AM »
I know that EVFs are inevitable once the quality is as-good or better than a traditional view finder. I just don't think the technology is here yet. I look forward to trying out the recently announced Sonys to see how good it has gotten. Part of me wants to but a Zacuto zFinder not for video, but for better Live View when shooting stills.
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clarkia

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 10:05:45 AM »
Interesting prediction: "Canon, the maker of EOS cameras, forecasts SLR camera sales will rise 24 percent this year, helping offset the fallout from the factory disruptions caused by Japan’s March 11 earthquake and tsunami." Unless, I'm reading this wrong, and I'm not sure about when their fiscal year starts, I doubt they could have an increase like that in SLRs with the current lineup and would have to provide something new that they can sell a lot of. Did they lose that many DSLR sales this year due to the earthquake? Perhaps it's just wishing, but there has to be a new body (not a rebel) in that mix to justify that percentage rise. And they won't sell that many 1Ds 4s....

Gothmoth

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 10:12:24 AM »
Quote
combined share of the Japanese market has fallen by 35 percent, while

im not up to date when it comes to the japanese market....what shares? cameras overall or DSLR only?

my uncle has used canon cameras since the 80s.
he changed his 50E in 2006 for a canon rebel.

last week i saw him and as we talked he told me he has sold all is camera gear on ebay.
he now takes all his pictures with his iphone.  ::)

no new DSLR or mirroless camera would have changed that decision for him.

he thinks the iphone is god enough for the snapshots he takes and most imporant he has it always with him.
 

robert55

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 12:06:04 PM »
I think it will happen, but there quite a lot of concepts that can be hidden under the mirrorless umbrella. The interesting question is whether Canon will go the route Sony takes [make the camera as small as possible, but keep the sensor at APS-C size] or the route Nikon according to rumors will take [find a new niche for a sensor even smaller than m43].
I see advantages for mirrorless [if it has a EVF], but I'd hope for a a concept that keeps EF lenses completely useable. If you don't want to go MF legacy lenses, apart from kit lenses m43 and NEX have little to fofer at the moment. It takes time to bulid a lens line-up

gkreis

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 01:18:05 PM »
Sony's NEX 5N has me looking intently at it for a travel camera and one that I can keep with me handily and not sacrifice IQ too much. In fact, I bet it is better IQ than my aging 40D. I don't like the idea of another set of proprietary lenses, but Canon is non-existent in this space.

IMHO Canon is really MISSING this trend.  They are leaning on their powershots and the dSLRs.  People want the speed of a dSLR and IQ, but the size closer to powershot. Sony has hit the sweet spot, I think. I think the MFT format is going to die out unless they can get their sensors to keep up....   How did Sony squeeze an APS-C sensor in such a small body?  I guess by dropping in body stabilization which I admit is disappointing as it can greatly reduce the price of the extra set of lenses.

Caps18

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 01:40:48 PM »
last week i saw him and as we talked he told me he has sold all is camera gear on ebay.
he now takes all his pictures with his iphone.  ::)

no new DSLR or mirroless camera would have changed that decision for him.

he thinks the iphone is god enough for the snapshots he takes and most imporant he has it always with him.

I am going to get this next iPhone, and that is my plan for basic pictures.  I will have my 5DM2 when it really matters.  But I haven't been able to take it some places where it would have been nice to have a camera.

I'm not sure if a mirrorless Canon that could use EF lenses would appeal to me.  It might have prior to getting the 5D, but I don't see any benefit if I have the iPhone and 5D to get all of the pictures I would like to get.
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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 01:40:48 PM »

chrisnemes

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 02:29:17 PM »
Good. Let mirrorless cameras catch on and enthusiasts buy them.

Then we will have a clear distinction between amateur cameras and those designed for serious photographers.

People want the speed of an SLR but the size closer to powershot?
Mirrorless rely on sluggish contrast detection for focusing. Yes, just like your average point-and-shot camera.
I think an important distinction has been omitted when naming these cameras mirrorless DSLRs, mainly the fact that you not only lose the mirror, you also lose the fast focus. I'm not sure buyers are very aware of that. What do you think?

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 02:41:34 PM »
I think an important distinction has been omitted when naming these cameras mirrorless DSLRs, mainly the fact that you not only lose the mirror, you also lose the fast focus. I'm not sure buyers are very aware of that. What do you think?

I bought an Olympus Pen E-P3 a few weeks ago because I wanted something smaller and lighter than my 50D to carry around. Its focusing about just as fast at the 50D -- I was surprised at how good it was, honestly.

keithfullermusic

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 02:42:22 PM »
I'm not really sure what mirrorless means, can someone please explain it to me.  Thanks.
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chrisnemes

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2011, 02:51:58 PM »
I bought an Olympus Pen E-P3 a few weeks ago because I wanted something smaller and lighter than my 50D to carry around. Its focusing about just as fast at the 50D -- I was surprised at how good it was, honestly.

Yeah, heard about the Olympus magic contrast detection. Cool stuff. I guess it works for travelling around.

This will be an interesting segment: people who are willing to spend an important amount of cash on interchangeable lens, but save on the body. Hmm.
I think there may be just us photographers tired of carrying around monsters just to shoot some photos at our friend's birthday party. :)

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2011, 02:57:11 PM »
A mirrorless camera is exactly that...its missing the main mirror. My appologies if the following is too basic.

What makes an SLR an SLR is that the eyepiece you look through is sharing with the capturing media, be it film or sensor.  There are actually two ways to do this, one would be to divide the light with a prism, but that not very effective and reduces the light you see and the light the sensor sees. The second option is to use a mirror. When its in a down state, the light coming through the lens get reflected up to the view finder. When you press the shutter button, the mirror flips up and the light get sent towards the film/sensor. (I'll ignore the shutter curtain...if you don't understand that you'll need to look/ask seperately).

On mirrorless cameras, the light always hits a sensor. Then you look at a monitor. As someone said on another post, if you are using your live-view option on the camera, you are effectively using a mirrorless camera. Mirrorless cameras could also offer a conventional looking viewfinder, but you would actually be looking at a tiny LCD.

Hope it helps.

There isn't anything inheriently better/worse about a mirrored/mirrrorless design, however most screens can't currently show you the detail that looking through the lens can. There is also a slight delay in the sensor reading the image and the screen showing it. Its nearly imperceptible, but its there. There are several advantages. Mirrorless is mechanicly more simple and it doens't introduce some vibrations. You would think that the displays would add cost, but the simplicity of not implementing the mirror and its optics can be a cost saver. Time will tell.

keithfullermusic

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2011, 03:29:58 PM »
A mirrorless camera is exactly that...its missing the main mirror. My appologies if the following is too basic.

What makes an SLR an SLR is that the eyepiece you look through is sharing with the capturing media, be it film or sensor.  There are actually two ways to do this, one would be to divide the light with a prism, but that not very effective and reduces the light you see and the light the sensor sees. The second option is to use a mirror. When its in a down state, the light coming through the lens get reflected up to the view finder. When you press the shutter button, the mirror flips up and the light get sent towards the film/sensor. (I'll ignore the shutter curtain...if you don't understand that you'll need to look/ask seperately).

On mirrorless cameras, the light always hits a sensor. Then you look at a monitor. As someone said on another post, if you are using your live-view option on the camera, you are effectively using a mirrorless camera. Mirrorless cameras could also offer a conventional looking viewfinder, but you would actually be looking at a tiny LCD.

Hope it helps.

There isn't anything inheriently better/worse about a mirrored/mirrrorless design, however most screens can't currently show you the detail that looking through the lens can. There is also a slight delay in the sensor reading the image and the screen showing it. Its nearly imperceptible, but its there. There are several advantages. Mirrorless is mechanicly more simple and it doens't introduce some vibrations. You would think that the displays would add cost, but the simplicity of not implementing the mirror and its optics can be a cost saver. Time will tell.

Thanks.  thats actually what i thought it meant, but i figured it had to be more since so many companies are trying to make mirrorless cameras.  I'm not sure what the benefit(s) is(are)?  Less camera shake when you fire the shot? Smaller?

Right now i have a 50D, and even when taking macros with the 100mm (non L) I don't have any problems.  If i'm really picky I go to live view on a tripod with a 2 second delay and a remote trigger!!!

I hope that doesn't mean we will have to look at everything through the LCD screen - I like my viewfinder!
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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2011, 03:29:58 PM »

dstppy

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2011, 03:52:49 PM »
I am going to get this next iPhone, and that is my plan for basic pictures.  I will have my 5DM2 when it really matters.  But I haven't been able to take it some places where it would have been nice to have a camera.

I'm not sure if a mirrorless Canon that could use EF lenses would appeal to me.  It might have prior to getting the 5D, but I don't see any benefit if I have the iPhone and 5D to get all of the pictures I would like to get.

Where were you barred from bringing the camera?  Performances were the only place I saw checking and my S95 wasn't hard to bring in.  Big white lenses were at the yankees game I went to, which surprised me.

Just curious.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 04:05:44 PM »
I hope that doesn't mean we will have to look at everything through the LCD screen - I like my viewfinder!

For a mirrorless camera to have a viewfinder, it would either need to be an electronic viewfinder (small LCD inside a viewfinder-like housing), or a separate optical path (like the old twin lens reflex cameras that preceded SLRs, or the current P&S cameras with optical viewfinders.  The latter have issues with parallax, and are problematic on interchangeable lens systems.
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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 04:05:44 PM »