September 16, 2014, 05:32:30 PM

Author Topic: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?  (Read 17785 times)

WarStreet

  • Guest
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2011, 07:18:48 AM »
The NEX 5n Black is number nine (9) on Amazon's Top 100 DSLR sales list. The NEX 7 is number thirteen (13). and the NEX 5n Silver is number twenty (20). All three with 18-55 lens.  http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941 

I think you have mixed the comments of the Nikon 2.6 crop factor with that of the NEX. The minority of users regarding the NEX, was referred for those users who will buy the NEX to be used with small primes only.

The NEX is a great camera from a technology point of view, and it fits in the (b) category together with the large sensor SLR's. My comment about the NEX was just about the compact advantage. I don't believe it gives any significant advantage from a size point of view when used even with the kit lens. The advantage is there only with the small primes. But you mentioned another advantage of the NEX which I left out. The ability to use this camera with any lens.

Regarding the sales list in Amazon, since this is an APS-C sensor, there is no reason why it should not perform well compared to the other APS-C cameras.

Currently top placed NEX is the the NEX-5N black 18-55 @ position 11 with just 19 days in top 100, but at position 12 there is the 2009 500D 18-55 with 887 days in top 100. I can't see the older 2010 NEX-3 and NEX-5 in the top 100. The new NEX are still pre-order. When they get in stock, they should increase in sales, and than we have to wait and see if they will be able to stay in top positions for more than a year.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2011, 07:18:48 AM »

Sunnystate

  • Rebel SL1
  • ***
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2011, 08:16:33 AM »
May be this is like apples and oranges, but why reading this thread makes me feel like, I have deja vu?
Netbook or i-Pad anyone? Just some fat cat CEO from Canon is missing trying to publicly ridicule the mirrorless idea...

elflord

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 705
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2011, 09:29:45 AM »
I don't believe it gives any significant advantage from a size point of view when used even with the kit lens. The advantage is there only with the small primes.
That's specifically the NEX largely because it doesn't have a very mature native lens selection. It's not true for mirrorless in general.

The new panasonic 14-42 X lens is under 100g. Put that on a GF3 and the package including the lens is lighter than a Canon G12 or about half the weight of a canon rebel with a  small prime attached.

moreorless

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 646
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2011, 10:06:08 AM »
That's specifically the NEX largely because it doesn't have a very mature native lens selection. It's not true for mirrorless in general.

The new panasonic 14-42 X lens is under 100g. Put that on a GF3 and the package including the lens is lighter than a Canon G12 or about half the weight of a canon rebel with a  small prime attached.

The lens selection being small is a different issue to the lens size being far too large compaired to the body, I doubt we'll see a zoom much smaller than the 18-55 kit.

Personally I still feel the real answer to catering for the market of compact users wanting better image quality is pushing sensor size a bit further on bridge cameras. Most users are not IMHO going to be bothered about using speicalist lenses, they just want a decent normal zoom and I think theres a fair bit of zoom for someone like the S95 to have a larger sensor/lens while still being pocketable.

elflord

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 705
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2011, 10:20:18 AM »
That's specifically the NEX largely because it doesn't have a very mature native lens selection. It's not true for mirrorless in general.

The new panasonic 14-42 X lens is under 100g. Put that on a GF3 and the package including the lens is lighter than a Canon G12 or about half the weight of a canon rebel with a  small prime attached.

The lens selection being small is a different issue to the lens size being far too large compaired to the body, I doubt we'll see a zoom much smaller than the 18-55 kit.

There already is a kit lens for a large sensor mirrorless system camera that is much smaller than the Sony kit lens (that would be about 1/3 the weight of the Sony 18-55).

The lens is the 14-42 panasonic X lens. It is compatible with micro 4/3 cameras.  At 100g, it weighs in at less than half the weight of the body.

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14376
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2011, 10:27:52 AM »
I think theres a fair bit of zoom for someone like the S95 to have a larger sensor/lens while still being pocketable.

I think so, too - and I hope this happens sooner rahter than later.  Competition from the cell phone market is getting stronger.  A year ago, Nokia released the N8 with a 12 MP sensor that has a crop factor of ~5x (and a 28mm f/2.8 Zeiss lens).  That 5x crop factor is not much more than the 4.6x crop factor of the S95/G12. 
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

WarStreet

  • Guest
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2011, 11:51:00 AM »
That's specifically the NEX largely because it doesn't have a very mature native lens selection. It's not true for mirrorless in general.

The new panasonic 14-42 X lens is under 100g. Put that on a GF3 and the package including the lens is lighter than a Canon G12 or about half the weight of a canon rebel with a  small prime attached.

This is the most interesting large sensor compact solution I have seen so far. I think that this is the only lens available with this characteristics. There is a big difference compared to their other 14-42 non retractable lens.

It is true, that the NEX will eventually get some lens of this type, even although could never be as small due to the bigger sensor, but will sure make the NEX a more interesting camera for those who want a standard zoom.

The GF3 14-42 x combo compared with the G12 from size and weight point of view is impressive.

Competition from the cell phone market is getting stronger.  A year ago, Nokia released the N8 with a 12 MP sensor that has a crop factor of ~5x (and a 28mm f/2.8 Zeiss lens).  That 5x crop factor is not much more than the 4.6x crop factor of the S95/G12. 

Looking at the GF3 14-42 x combo mentioned by elflord for sure there is potential to make a bigger sensor compact camera with the same camera size. The compact camera should also have a size advantage with a fixed lens system compared with the GF3 interchangeable lens one.   


canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2011, 11:51:00 AM »

WarStreet

  • Guest
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2011, 12:04:20 PM »
May be this is like apples and oranges, but why reading this thread makes me feel like, I have deja vu?
Netbook or i-Pad anyone? Just some fat cat CEO from Canon is missing trying to publicly ridicule the mirrorless idea...

This is a much more intelligent subject. Netbook and Ipad do different stuff for different needs, both are good. Here we are talking if a mirrorless can achieve it's size/quality objective which could be aimed for a good number of users. We are not talking about mirrorless being better or not to traditional SLR.   

Sunnystate

  • Rebel SL1
  • ***
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2011, 12:55:47 PM »
May be this is like apples and oranges, but why reading this thread makes me feel like, I have deja vu?
Netbook or i-Pad anyone? Just some fat cat CEO from Canon is missing trying to publicly ridicule the mirrorless idea...

This is a much more intelligent subject. Netbook and Ipad do different stuff for different needs, both are good. Here we are talking if a mirrorless can achieve it's size/quality objective which could be aimed for a good number of users. We are not talking about mirrorless being better or not to traditional SLR.


You are right of course, and if you think bit harder you may come up with few more differences...
I was talking about analogy that should be obvious to people without prejudice in perception of facts.



Currently top placed NEX is the the NEX-5N black 18-55 @ position 11 with just 19 days in top 100, but at position 12 there is the 2009 500D 18-55 with 887 days in top 100. I can't see the older 2010 NEX-3 and NEX-5 in the top 100. The new NEX are still pre-order. When they get in stock, they should increase in sales, and than we have to wait and see if they will be able to stay in top positions for more than a year.

Same pattern here, if you have ever read news/blogs about every single revolutionary Apple product launch beginning with iPod, iPhone and ending with iPad those are the exact predictions: "the sales will last couple of weeks at best and than will dramatically fall when the niche get saturated". Finally they may get the satisfaction: iPod sales are down after a decade!

I can promise you, other members will be kind, and nobody will be rubbing your nose in it.

c.d.embrey

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 456
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2011, 09:17:25 PM »

The lens selection being small is a different issue to the lens size being far too large compaired to the body, I doubt we'll see a zoom much smaller than the 18-55 kit.

Why would you want a zoom lens??? You don't see Leica s with zoom lenses.

Quote
Personally I still feel the real answer to catering for the market of compact users wanting better image quality is pushing sensor size a bit further on bridge cameras. Most users are not IMHO going to be bothered about using speicalist lenses, they just want a decent normal zoom and I think theres a fair bit of zoom for someone like the S95 to have a larger sensor/lens while still being pocketable.

Compact users are leaving the camera market. They will NEVER AGAIN own a Canon or Nikon camera. They are migrating to phones with cameras. Why use a camera when it can't upload your photos/videos to FaceSpace ???

The NEX 7 and the Zeiss 24mm f1.8 will be here soon, at a combined price of about $2,300.00, this camera/lens is not aimed at a step-up market 8-D

Hillsilly

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2011, 05:02:21 AM »
I've just returned from the World Rally Championships in Coffs Harbour, Australia.  Everyone had a camera, and for a motor sports event, there was a surprising amount of camera talk and discussion.  I'd say that nearly one third of families had a DSLR and Canon was easily the most popular.  No surprises there - Canon is No. 1!!!

What do I learn from events like this?  Firstly, there is a good, general understanding of the benefits of different types of cameras.  Just like you don't bring a knife to a gun fight, most people appreciate that a phone isn't the best for fast action. Its just that a small percentage of people don't care - They're just happy being at the event and they'll rattle of a few photos to show friends and family what it was like. 

Secondly, many people that aren't into photography are still interested in why a DSLR performs better.  I lent my camera to a few people throughout the event for a couple of passes and they were surprised by the vast difference in focus speed and frame rates.  Potential future customers?  Possibly.

Therefore, will compact users ever buy Canon or Nikon?  Yes - of course they will.  As with any other purchase, they'll weigh up the pros and negatives.  But right now, if you want a camera that is more durable, performs well in low light, is better for sports, for fast focusing, then you are going with a DSLR.  The majority of people contemplating an expensive camera purchase understand this.  Are these benefits of a DSLR worth the extra cost, complexity and weight?  Everyone has their own answer.

Therefore, my opinions...

What about compacts?  In five years time, this market won't exist. Phones are already good enough.

What about mirrorless?  The future is looking bright.  As an owner of one myself (Olympus EPL-1), I can confirm that the image quality is at least on par if not better than a 30D.  I'd suspect that it is comparable with modern DSLRs too.  It is a fraction of the weight and is significantly more enjoyable to carry around.  Sure, focus is a bit slower, but not dramatically so.  Battery life is also woeful with about 300 shots / charge.  But for an everyday use camera that will produce better results that your phone, why wouldn't you choose one?

My family camera prediction?  People looking for a simple, light weight, lower cost, quality image camera will choose mirrorless.  People looking for more robust performance will stick with a DSLR.  Canon is the market leader in DSLRs, and there is no reason for this to change. 

The end result is that Canon will lose sales by not being in the mirrorless market.  But will this impact on their overall profitability given that they will retain the higher end of the market?  Only a Canon exec would know the answer.
1000FN | 7E | 3000 | 3 | LS-100TS

Justhandguns

  • Guest
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2011, 10:12:28 AM »

Alter getting my NEX 5n, I have little interest in using my Canon DSLRs. I've ordered an E-mount to Nikon F mount adapter and will be doing my next table top product shots with a 5n and a Nikon 85mm PC-E tilt and shift lens. BTW I've been using a Canon 1DSII with a 90mm TS-E lens in the past for product work.

I would love to see your product shots with the NEX 5n, not that I am saying it cannot take macro product shot photos. My friends used to do product shots as well, their main cameras are usually the 5Dmk2. The trouble for the NEX 5 is that, you do not have the PC lead for flashes, nor any attachments for macro ring flash. I just wonder what type of table top product shots you are taking?

I think mirror less cameras are mostly for rich boys who have money to burn. Practically speaking, if I want a compact camera, lots of people would just go for a simple P&S like the Canon S95 (or even a mobile or cell phone). For the pros, DSLR will still be there for a long while, even the Sony EVF a77 is built as an SLR, not something radical. Actually, I always think that the Sony full time EVF concept was probably borrowed from the good old film EOS 1nRS, which has a a fixed pellicle mirror.  Similar to the Sony a77, there is no viewfinder black-out at the moment of exposure, the fixed mirror allows 10 frames per second and a shutter release lag of 6ms. Just wonder why Canon is not putting this into their new 1D cameras. It would be much more practical than sticking the EVF in, wouldn't it? 


Mark D5 TEAM II

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1190
  • Proud N0ink 0wnz0r / crApple iFruitcake H4t3r
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2011, 10:51:18 AM »
Quote
I also don't get this gadget collector fad

It's simple really, when you love your craft you're excited to try out all the new tools that may change what you can do, and give you something better or different to the other tools you have. I assisted for 8 years before becoming a photograper myself over 25 years ago, and every photographer I know is fascinated by the tools of our trade. If you aren't that interested then you aren't that serious, which begs the question, why are here on a rumor site?

Please, sir, if you read my post again carefully you'd understand that I'm only referring to MILCs/EVIL cams, not to all gadgets equipment measurebators fantasize about. Relax. :P

To answer your question, I'm here for rumors on new products from currently existing lines, not for putative new models from as-yet imaginary product lines. BTW, shouldn't I be the one asking you that question, since I got into this forum before you?  ::)

Thats more a definition of gearhead wit a job in the relevant area.
I'm more interested in solutions to challenges related to the picture I want to take. ;)

This, too.
Nikon NSF16 5-Leaf Dual-Blade Industrial Fan ¦ Nikon NTMFI-H1 Dry Heavy Flat Iron ¦ Nikon Tough Mama NTMRC1-2S Rice Cooker “Limited Edition” ¦ Nikon Tough Mama NTMJK18-S Stainless Electric Kettle Plate Type ¦ Nikon NHT 2-in-1 Curling Iron & Straightener in One ¦ Nikon N4004s Decision Master System™

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2011, 10:51:18 AM »

Mark D5 TEAM II

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1190
  • Proud N0ink 0wnz0r / crApple iFruitcake H4t3r
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2011, 11:05:35 AM »
I really hope this fad among the gadget measurebators don't lead to more of this silliness:

Nikon NSF16 5-Leaf Dual-Blade Industrial Fan ¦ Nikon NTMFI-H1 Dry Heavy Flat Iron ¦ Nikon Tough Mama NTMRC1-2S Rice Cooker “Limited Edition” ¦ Nikon Tough Mama NTMJK18-S Stainless Electric Kettle Plate Type ¦ Nikon NHT 2-in-1 Curling Iron & Straightener in One ¦ Nikon N4004s Decision Master System™

c.d.embrey

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 456
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2011, 06:09:06 PM »

I would love to see your product shots with the NEX 5n, not that I am saying it cannot take macro product shot photos. My friends used to do product shots as well, their main cameras are usually the 5Dmk2. The trouble for the NEX 5 is that, you do not have the PC lead for flashes, nor any attachments for macro ring flash. I just wonder what type of table top product shots you are taking?

I've used HMI lighting for many years, a lot of product work is done using HMIs. I was shooting some video with the 5n, on Sunday, using HMIs. So far everything is looking good.

I have two ideas for triggering Profoto generators. One is inexpensive, but quick and uses a PC cable. The other is much more expensive, but will allow the use of Pocket Wizards. I'm been custom building what I need for a long time.

Quote
I think mirror less cameras are mostly for rich boys who have money to burn. Practically speaking, if I want a compact camera, lots of people would just go for a simple P&S like the Canon S95 (or even a mobile or cell phone).

I've never owned a digital P&S, but I do have (and use) a Yashica T3 (Zeiss 35mm f2.8 lens) film P&S. I use a iPod Touch G4 as my walk around camera.

I'll be using my mirrorless cameras for business.


canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2011, 06:09:06 PM »