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Author Topic: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]  (Read 144369 times)

dflt

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #165 on: August 05, 2013, 03:41:29 PM »
Well, hi mpix looks to be imminent... everywhere

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #165 on: August 05, 2013, 03:41:29 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #166 on: August 05, 2013, 07:37:50 PM »
Prototypes for a 7D Mark II now exist over a year, but if I look at the 70D and 6D price I think that there is no space for an 7D Mark II between the mentioned cameras.

But why can't a 7D2 with faster burst rate and superior focus system sit ABOVE the 6D?
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Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #167 on: August 05, 2013, 08:27:31 PM »
Prototypes for a 7D Mark II now exist over a year, but if I look at the 70D and 6D price I think that there is no space for an 7D Mark II between the mentioned cameras.

But why can't a 7D2 with faster burst rate and superior focus system sit ABOVE the 6D?

It would be missing more than half of the sensor.

Don Haines

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #168 on: August 05, 2013, 08:38:17 PM »
Prototypes for a 7D Mark II now exist over a year, but if I look at the 70D and 6D price I think that there is no space for an 7D Mark II between the mentioned cameras.

But why can't a 7D2 with faster burst rate and superior focus system sit ABOVE the 6D?

It would be missing more than half of the sensor.

But the sensor isn't everything..... For the sake of argument, what if you made the 7D2 with the 70D sensor, yet with the features and autofocus capabilities of the 1DX? Where would that sit?

Perhaps the 7D2 will come out with a new mode, one that will make it indispensable for people taking pictures for facebook?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 08:42:08 PM by Don Haines »
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neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #169 on: August 05, 2013, 08:42:31 PM »
Prototypes for a 7D Mark II now exist over a year, but if I look at the 70D and 6D price I think that there is no space for an 7D Mark II between the mentioned cameras.

But why can't a 7D2 with faster burst rate and superior focus system sit ABOVE the 6D?

It would be missing more than half of the sensor.

...and the numeral in the name is one digit too high.
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ahsanford

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #170 on: August 05, 2013, 08:45:02 PM »
Prototypes for a 7D Mark II now exist over a year, but if I look at the 70D and 6D price I think that there is no space for an 7D Mark II between the mentioned cameras.

But why can't a 7D2 with faster burst rate and superior focus system sit ABOVE the 6D?


This is fairly well-covered ground here in the forums.  There is a split (I wouldn't hazard a percentage guess) between those who believe that (a) a crop camera, if appropriately spec'd, could warrant a higher asking price than the 6D, and (b) a crop camera should never cost more than a (relatively contemporary) FF camera.

I'm with the former group.  The 7D2 represents the pinnacle, the 'standard bearer' for the APS-C format, and should be top of the line in each and every performance metric compared to Canon's other APS-C entries.  So though it may lack the pure IQ advantage that FF offers, so many other features -- AF, burst rate, build quality, ergonomics, etc. -- could Me_Me_Me the relatively basic features of the 6D.  So, yes, I think the 7D2 will cost more than the 6D, especially if it is coming out as late as they say.  (By H2 2014, the 6D may be down around $1700!)

Also, the 7D and 6D products are aimed at different shooters.  I've posted 'who shoots what and why' a few times in the past year and I still stand by it:

    XXXXD:      Cost cost cost.  "I cannot buy a film camera any longer", "my high school student son wants to pick up photography", etc.

    XXXD:        A few key consumer level niceties: touch screen, swivel screen, so-so AF for video. "I just want it to take nice pictures, and occasionally a video", "Do I need a longer lens?  Maybe...", etc.

    XXD:          A thicker grip (I hear this often), top LCD for quick adjustments, less reliance on auto modes. "I've been shooting a while now", "I felt limited by my older camera", etc.

    7D:            Serious shooters (and some pros?) who see APS-C as a strength and not a liability.  Better build.  Fast burst.  "This is the best tool for birding", "I need high burst rate to cover sports for the local paper",  "I really like tweaking my lens AF", etc.

    6D:            Serious shooters who do see APS-C as a liability but don't want to pay for all the bells and whistles.  "I have always wanted a FF camera", "It's not the highest end, but you should see the pictures I get with this."


    5D3:          Pros, videographers, well-funded enthusiasts, etc. who will pay for IQ and build quality but do not require the apocalypse proof build, cost or size of 1D bodies.  "It's solid and doesn't let me down", "Shoosh, we're filming right now", "[Quiet shutter noise at wedding]", etc.

    1DX:          Those people.  "Welcome to my studio",  "We're invading Asia.  Thought I'd tag along", "It was this or the obsidian steering wheel for my yacht" ::)

The 6D or 7D being higher or lower on the list is a matter of preference.  The debate will always rage on between the 'FF purists' and the 'bigger picture / overall value pragmatists'.  Both make fair points.

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Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #171 on: August 05, 2013, 08:55:14 PM »
Prototypes for a 7D Mark II now exist over a year, but if I look at the 70D and 6D price I think that there is no space for an 7D Mark II between the mentioned cameras.

But why can't a 7D2 with faster burst rate and superior focus system sit ABOVE the 6D?

It would be missing more than half of the sensor.

But the sensor isn't everything.....

Well, to be above the 6D, everything has to be above.

Quote
For the sake of argument, what if you made the 7D2 with the 70D sensor, yet with the features and autofocus capabilities of the 1DX? Where would that sit?

Next to the 6D?

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #171 on: August 05, 2013, 08:55:14 PM »

dgatwood

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #172 on: August 05, 2013, 09:57:27 PM »
    6D:            Serious shooters who do see APS-C as a liability but don't want to pay for all the bells and whistles.  "I have always wanted a FF camera", "It's not the highest end, but you should see the pictures I get with this."[/b]

Also serious travelers who want GPS stamping without requiring an external accessory.  I'd have preferred a crop body, but Canon didn't bother to make GPS available in the 70D, so I settled for the 6D.

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #173 on: August 05, 2013, 10:52:42 PM »
Prototypes for a 7D Mark II now exist over a year, but if I look at the 70D and 6D price I think that there is no space for an 7D Mark II between the mentioned cameras.

But why can't a 7D2 with faster burst rate and superior focus system sit ABOVE the 6D?

It would be missing more than half of the sensor.

Perhaps, but megapixel count would be very similar, so spatial resolution will increase, greatly diminishing the difference in physical sensor size. Noise will increase a bit over the 6D, assuming no other technological improvements in the sensor beyond what we see in the 70D. Combine that with superiority in other features (AF, FPS, buffer depth, etc.) and there really isn't any reason the manufacturers list price for the two wouldn't be very similar, identical, or even lending to a higher priced 7D II (i.e. in the event that Canon does indeed do something fairly radical with the 7D II sensor...say move to 3-layer, move to a 180nm design, whatever it may be, so long as it is accompanied by a meaningful improvement in APS-C IQ over the 7D's 18mp sensor.)

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #174 on: August 05, 2013, 10:53:05 PM »
Prototypes for a 7D Mark II now exist over a year, but if I look at the 70D and 6D price I think that there is no space for an 7D Mark II between the mentioned cameras.

But why can't a 7D2 with faster burst rate and superior focus system sit ABOVE the 6D?

It would be missing more than half of the sensor.

But the sensor isn't everything..... For the sake of argument, what if you made the 7D2 with the 70D sensor, yet with the features and autofocus capabilities of the 1DX? Where would that sit?

Perhaps the 7D2 will come out with a new mode, one that will make it indispensable for people taking pictures for facebook?

Haha, love the cat face icon. :D

drjlo

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #175 on: August 05, 2013, 11:16:21 PM »
More and more, it looks like I made the right decision to splurge on EOS-M for aps-c fun rather than waiting (and apparently waiting lots more) for the next-gen, awesome, aps-c replacement for 7D. 

sagittariansrock

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #176 on: August 06, 2013, 12:30:19 AM »
Prototypes for a 7D Mark II now exist over a year, but if I look at the 70D and 6D price I think that there is no space for an 7D Mark II between the mentioned cameras.

But why can't a 7D2 with faster burst rate and superior focus system sit ABOVE the 6D?

It would be missing more than half of the sensor.

But the sensor isn't everything.....

Well, to be above the 6D, everything has to be above.

Quote
For the sake of argument, what if you made the 7D2 with the 70D sensor, yet with the features and autofocus capabilities of the 1DX? Where would that sit?

Next to the 6D?

Well, since you absolutely love to argue just for the sake of argument- while it is true that a 7D cannot be higher up than a 6D because Canon makes it clear in the naming convention, it would be possible for a camera with a smaller sensor to be higher. Remember those days when the APS-H 1D used be ranked above the 5D? Only a sensor doesn't make a camera. Neither size, nor DR.

In any case, even though the 7DII is not going to be ranked above 6D, it is always possible it will be priced higher. 6D seems to be practically undersold to entice people to go FF, and I wonder if Canon will want to price the 7DII lower if they include features that will set it far apart from the 70D.


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Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #177 on: August 06, 2013, 12:45:45 AM »
Well, since you absolutely love to argue just for the sake of argument- while it is true that a 7D cannot be higher up than a 6D because Canon makes it clear in the naming convention, it would be possible for a camera with a smaller sensor to be higher. Remember those days when the APS-H 1D used be ranked above the 5D? Only a sensor doesn't make a camera. Neither size, nor DR.

In any case, even though the 7DII is not going to be ranked above 6D, it is always possible it will be priced higher. 6D seems to be practically undersold to entice people to go FF, and I wonder if Canon will want to price the 7DII lower if they include features that will set it far apart from the 70D.

Speaking about arguing for the sake of the arguing - what is the ultimate authority which will determine which one is higher?

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #177 on: August 06, 2013, 12:45:45 AM »

Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #178 on: August 06, 2013, 12:52:21 AM »
Perhaps, but megapixel count would be very similar, so spatial resolution will increase, greatly diminishing the difference in physical sensor size.

Ironically, with almost infinite pixel count, the advantage of the FF sensor would increase and would reach the limit 1.6x (in the center). And this is with the same lens and same f-stop. For equivalent ones, it is even more (think about 50/1.2 on crop vs. 85/2 on FF). You are forgetting the enlargement factor.  With fast lenses wide open, an increased pixel count does not help you much.

Quote
Noise will increase a bit over the 6D, assuming no other technological improvements in the sensor beyond what we see in the 70D. Combine that with superiority in other features (AF, FPS, buffer depth, etc.) and there really isn't any reason the manufacturers list price for the two wouldn't be very similar, identical, or even lending to a higher priced 7D II (i.e. in the event that Canon does indeed do something fairly radical with the 7D II sensor...say move to 3-layer, move to a 180nm design, whatever it may be, so long as it is accompanied by a meaningful improvement in APS-C IQ over the 7D's 18mp sensor.)

I am not talking about price.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 12:55:31 AM by Pi »

whothafunk

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #179 on: August 06, 2013, 02:13:06 AM »
It would be missing more than half of the sensor.
and that's the only thing 6D offers. better IQ and ISO. 7D(2) on the other hand:
- FPS
- AF speed, spread and points
- CF
- buffer
- 100% VF and 1x magnification
- more custom functions
- better weather sealing and durability
- (Dual, +?) Digic 6 processor for the 7D2
- the tag "TOP APS-C"

and the list goes on. i completely see how its priced above 6D, even though i would rather see it not get above it. but in 1 year time, when 7D2 is supposedly released, 6D's price will plummet due to its age and.. you know the rest.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 03:10:21 AM by whothafunk »
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #179 on: August 06, 2013, 02:13:06 AM »