April 20, 2014, 10:42:25 AM

Author Topic: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]  (Read 34276 times)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2013, 05:21:53 AM »
DSLR development appears to be reaching a plateau, and sales seem to be reflecting this. The 70D is basically a consumerized version of the 7D, similar to how the 6D was a consumerized version of the 5D2. I don’t really think there is as much room for a 7D2, as the 70D is probably good enough to basically replace it. The image quality of the 6D/5D3, and the AF advantages of the 5D3 probably have also sliced off a significant share of potential buyers. There is likely a bean counter somewhere that has figured they would be better selling more 70Ds, 6Ds, and 5D3s than having to produce and market another camera in the current economic climate. By next year these cameras will all be mid-cycle when they can re-evaluate the marketplace and put out a 7D2 to goose sales if it makes sense.
Agree, but speaking as someone who made the mistake of getting a 60D instead of the 7D and now realizing its limitations (AFMA, better focus points, etc) - I will be boycotting these marginal upgrades and hoping others will too, in favor of true market "re-evaluation." I can see the lure of improved videography with the 70D, but there's a notable absence of high end photography features to make me drop more "camera cash."

Canon fooled me once with the 60D and am waiting for the next true sports camera, rather than settling for another marginal 60D upgrade. Lets see a novel APS-C camera with 20+MP, an AF point system on par with the 1D, good iso, and I'd be first in line to buy! That'd be an awesome 7DmkII.

Unfortunately the 70D isn't appealing to professional videographers, even as a B cam.  It still line skips and creates terrible moire, aliasing and nasty artifacts.  The cameras also use crippling codecs that are terrible to work with and destroy the IQ. 

It appears that Canon has not fixed any of the much needed issues for videographers and have not given the photographers a worthy upgrade.  At this point I would only buy a Canon camera that would work well with Magic Lantern; they seem like their providing more ground breaking features at a faster pace when compared to Canon.

Hmm could the delay be to retool the video, now that ML RAW is out they can't get away with poor processing being done to video. ?
Dual digic 6 could also read the entire sensor at once perhaps and avoid line skipping even though 20MP isn't a 2x2 or 3x3 block multiple.

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2013, 05:21:53 AM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2013, 05:23:22 AM »
So after a year more development time it will be a 70D WITHOUT wifi.... and probably for at least $500 more.... I don't think so...

Canon said things like groundbreaking and revolutionary.... while less features for more money would certainly be different....


it would  ;D  :'(  ;D

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2013, 05:26:35 AM »
Surely something significant will be included in the 7DII to differentiate it from the 70D. But what?

5D3+ level AF for sure. 10fps for sure, probably needs 12fps if the sensor's IQ is old news.

But the talk about same sensor and no mention of the new sensor really improve IQ at all and it still being used for late 2014.... yikes will Canon never ever catch up to Exmor and Aptina and everything else these days for low ISO?
Hopefully they are simply not bothering to bring it up for whatever reason. Otherwise that is even more worrisome for the 5D4/3D/1DSx or whatever.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 05:29:05 AM by LetTheRightLensIn »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2013, 05:29:48 AM »
If you own $10k+ of longer glass, I still think a built-for-war, high FPS, stellar focusing APS-C rig could sell for $2500 and be successful.

What fraction of Canon's intended 7DII market segment do you think owns $10K+ of longer glass?

A lot of the serious birding crowd I'm sure.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2013, 05:38:02 AM »
Here's a possible differentiation that no one's brought up: video-centric features.

The 70D has the new dual-pixel autofocus during video, and its inherited the All-I recording option found in the current-gen XD full frame cameras. But early sample footage suggests image quality isn't much better than that found in earlier ASP-C Canon models. Lots of artifacts, sub-HD resolution, etc.

That means the 7D II could feature some kind of significant step-up in video features. Maybe it will have a cleaner image, like the 5D Mark III (though I doubt it, if the 7D Mark II shares the 70D's sensor). Or maybe it will be a little sharper, like the 1DX, or even like the 35mm crop mode in the 1D-C. Or maybe Canon will do something really surprising, like implement decent video encoding. The much-ballyhooed All-I recording feature is better than the original implementation, but something that uses 4:2:2 color space would be nice, or that legitimately had a broadcast-ready bit rate.

Much of the problem isn't even the codec they used. You can get 4:2:2 uncompressed over HDMI on the 5D3 now and.... it barely looks better than what the in cam shot footage delivers. But then look at ML RAW and it's holy cow! Sooo much more detail and much better DR and more natural looking noise/'grain' patterns. They are doing something funky in the single chain. Maybe Digic is a crap processor and they are retooling it to do a much better job of debayer, scaling, range compression, etc. Maybe they realize they need to ship all the 7,5,1 series from now on with RAW option too since that also also brings many more bits of depth which does help in ways too. Maybe they need to add 4K option too. And chips fast enough to read the whole sensor at once so non-2x2,3x3 block scaled sensors can be free of moire and aliasing?




Quote
Also, Canon is going to have to move the lower-level C-series cameras to 4K relatively soon. Maybe not in the next year, but if the 7D Mark II is a 2014 camera, I wouldn't be surprised if a C300 mark II and a C100 mark II appeared shortly thereafter. If Black Magic ever gets its manufacturing act together, and if Sony keeps pushing hard on price, Canon's hand might be forced even sooner. So I don't think superior video specs on a 7D Mark II will cause any trouble with C-series bodies.

If Canon is smart they will forget worrying about hurting low end C series and losing to BM and perhaps Sony or who knows who else. If the 5D3 had delivered something close to ML RAW quality and usability features from day 1 it may have flown off the shelves and excited the video forums more.

Dual-phase pixel AF is one thing to help a lot but the IQ for video needs to be way fixed up too from the 7D.
And now that people have seen ML RAW.... bar is high.



CTJohn

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2013, 06:27:00 AM »
I've owned a 7D since shortly after its introduction.  I bought a 6D this past April.  On my recent trip I shot the 6D as my carry-around (still getting to know it) and anytime the light was low.  I used either/or in daylight.  Action (surfers, birds, etc.) in daylight was almost exclusively 7D.  The dynamic range of the 6D beats the 7D hands-down.  7D AF, AF points, frame rate is way above 6D capabilities.  My 7D captures almost double the frames my 6D does in the same amount of time.  I don't regret buying the 6D just for the increased ability to shoot well at night, and for better detail in my landscapes.  The 7D has survived so long because as a new breed it was far superior to the xxD line, and its features pushed the xD line; though it lacked xD DR & ISO capabilities most of these issues could be addressed in ppc.  Marry the best features of the two bodies together for a sure winner in the 7D MkII.
I have the same cameras and agree completely.
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jebrady03

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2013, 07:29:17 AM »
As a 60D user now, I was disappointed with the 70D revelation of no improvement in RAW.  I was hoping that the 7D would use a different sensor in which the main appeal was IQ improvement.  Basically, one camera's claim to fame was an improvement in usability via the screen (70D) and the other's claim to fame was an improvement in output.  To me, that would give potential buyers a clear path to upgrade.

It seems the 6D may be in my future instead...

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2013, 07:29:17 AM »

Marsu42

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2013, 07:33:02 AM »
As a 60D user now, I was disappointed with the 70D revelation of no improvement in RAW. 

Be positive - this saves you the decision if upgrading to the direct next gen and spending a lot of $$$ for another crop body is necessary :-p ... just like me, for low light capability ff is still the way to go for the years to come.

Marry the best features of the two bodies together for a sure winner in the 7D MkII.

No, in this marriage will result in a 5d3 or aps-h :-) ... and Canon is quite ok with people buying two $1500+ cameras instead of one :-p

Concerning the specs: no wifi, but gps, i.e. the exact opposite of the 70d? That doesn't make sense and also doesn't seem plausible/likely to me, esp. you can easily use an external gps logger but wifi is a different matter.

Also the "specs nowhere from complete" doesn't square with the fact that there already seem to be multiple 7d2 test cameras out there, so Canon's problem will be about choosing one of them and not re-spec'ing them all over.

Also the dual pixel af as an innovation in the 7d2 is a letdown, people shooting sports/wildlife will most likely continue to use the vf and phase af. But of course with lv af and the mirror already up Canon could get a lot of more fps from the 7d2 at practically zero cost...

neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2013, 07:37:27 AM »
I've owned a 7D since shortly after its introduction.  I bought a 6D this past April.  On my recent trip I shot the 6D as my carry-around (still getting to know it) and anytime the light was low.  I used either/or in daylight.  Action (surfers, birds, etc.) in daylight was almost exclusively 7D.  The dynamic range of the 6D beats the 7D hands-down.  7D AF, AF points, frame rate is way above 6D capabilities.  My 7D captures almost double the frames my 6D does in the same amount of time.  I don't regret buying the 6D just for the increased ability to shoot well at night, and for better detail in my landscapes.  The 7D has survived so long because as a new breed it was far superior to the xxD line, and its features pushed the xD line; though it lacked xD DR & ISO capabilities most of these issues could be addressed in ppc.  Marry the best features of the two bodies together for a sure winner in the 7D MkII.

They already did - it's called the 5DIII and Canon would like you to buy one.
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jd7

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2013, 07:51:23 AM »
I've owned a 7D since shortly after its introduction.  I bought a 6D this past April.  On my recent trip I shot the 6D as my carry-around (still getting to know it) and anytime the light was low.  I used either/or in daylight.  Action (surfers, birds, etc.) in daylight was almost exclusively 7D.  The dynamic range of the 6D beats the 7D hands-down.  7D AF, AF points, frame rate is way above 6D capabilities.  My 7D captures almost double the frames my 6D does in the same amount of time.  I don't regret buying the 6D just for the increased ability to shoot well at night, and for better detail in my landscapes.  The 7D has survived so long because as a new breed it was far superior to the xxD line, and its features pushed the xD line; though it lacked xD DR & ISO capabilities most of these issues could be addressed in ppc.  Marry the best features of the two bodies together for a sure winner in the 7D MkII.
I have the same cameras and agree completely.

I also have both cameras and agree ... although the result of marrying the best features of the two starts to look a bit like another camera they sell ... (OK, the 5D3 has a few extra tricks up its sleeve, in particular AF, but still.)

I do like the 6D for its IQ, the fact it's smaller and lighter, and because on it the 40mm pancake gives a 40mm FOV (relevant to me because I do like the option of such a small set up and there's no EF/EFS pancake in the 22 to 28 mm range).  However I'm finding it VERY hard to part with the 7D.
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Sabaki

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2013, 08:35:38 AM »
All this techno babble should be secondary to image quality.

I want a next gen flagship camera to give me cleaner and sharper pics with an improvement in DR and noise performance.

Should I spend $1500-$2000 on arguably better IQ? No. It should just be better.

I belong to a community of roughly 150 photographers and less than 3% of those are keen on the video capabilities of their cameras. 100% are very interested in image quality.

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neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2013, 08:48:32 AM »
I belong to a community of roughly 150 photographers and less than 3% of those are keen on the video capabilities of their cameras. 100% are very interested in image quality.

How many already use FF cameras?  How many more would, budget permitting?  If you're 'very interested' in IQ, you should first get the best lenses you can, then be hoping to get a FF body, not hoping for dramatic improvements in APS-C sensor IQ.
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Dylan777

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2013, 09:12:26 AM »

I also have both cameras and agree ... although the result of marrying the best features of the two starts to look a bit like another camera they sell ... (OK, the 5D3 has a few extra tricks up its sleeve, in particular AF, but still.)

I do like the 6D for its IQ, the fact it's smaller and lighter, and because on it the 40mm pancake gives a 40mm FOV (relevant to me because I do like the option of such a small set up and there's no EF/EFS pancake in the 22 to 28 mm range).  However I'm finding it VERY hard to part with the 7D.

Once you owned 5D III, your 7D will most likely sitting in the bag & collecting dust - or end up on CL.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 09:23:56 AM by Dylan777 »
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2013, 09:12:26 AM »

Marsu42

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2013, 09:27:31 AM »
Once you owned 5D III, your 7D will more likely sitting in the bag & collecting dust.

Once you owned a 1dx, the 5d3 will look like a children's toy to you. But this is comparing apples and oranges, the 5d ff range is a completely other gear range - you get nearly two 6d or three 7d1 for one 5d3. So for those who'd like to keep their (one!) camera body price well below $2k, it will remain a struggle with Canon to decide either for good af/fps or low light capability.

Dylan777

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2013, 09:59:19 AM »
Once you owned 5D III, your 7D will more likely sitting in the bag & collecting dust.

Once you owned a 1dx, the 5d3 will look like a children's toy to you. But this is comparing apples and oranges, the 5d ff range is a completely other gear range - you get nearly two 6d or three 7d1 for one 5d3. So for those who'd like to keep their (one!) camera body price well below $2k, it will remain a struggle with Canon to decide either for good af/fps or low light capability.

Show me what your 1D X can do that make my 5D III looks like a children's toy.
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2013, 09:59:19 AM »