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Author Topic: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]  (Read 46579 times)

dtaylor

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #195 on: August 06, 2013, 01:44:58 PM »
So in many situations, the crop body forces you to buy more expensive glass to get close (but not quite) to what FF can do. This does not mean that there is no place for crop bodies on the market.

Only when you force absurd rules of "equality" on the comparison as you did in all of your examples. I roll my eyes and laugh when FF fans do this in forums. "Oh, I own a 135 f/2L so you would just HAVE to buy an 85 f/1.2L to be EQUIVALENT to me." No one is trying to be "equivalent" to FF down to the precise mm / subject distance / field depth. No one shoots like that and no one cares. Do FF users buy and adjust their lenses to be "equivalent" to MF shooters? LF? Such silliness is reserved for forum debates, not real life.

A 135 f/2L might be better then an 85 f/1.2L wide open, but it's not better then itself on FF vs. crop. (At least not after a touch more sharpening on crop which is true of all lenses but also a non issue.) "But DoF!!!" Yeah, usually I want a little more DoF, not less. 9/10 I find the shallow DoF on FF to be a frustration and not an advantage. And if you understand bokeh, you understand why there will be little to no difference in background blur in many situations. (Hint: for detail well outside the plane of focus the physical aperture size is the driving factor, not the format or DoF.)

Same thing for comparing one lens at f/8 and one at f/5. No one shoots like that. No one stands in broad daylight and thinks "on FF I would shoot f/8, but I want the EXACT same DoF on crop so I better shoot f/5." It's insulting to even suggest such nonsense.

There are areas where a given combination of lens and IQ is cheaper on crop (i.e. UWA zoom) and areas where it's cheaper on FF (i.e. fast "normal" prime). For most uses crop is cheaper overall with equal performance, though there are areas where FF clearly has an IQ advantage.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 01:54:43 PM by dtaylor »

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #195 on: August 06, 2013, 01:44:58 PM »

Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #196 on: August 06, 2013, 02:53:25 PM »
So in many situations, the crop body forces you to buy more expensive glass to get close (but not quite) to what FF can do. This does not mean that there is no place for crop bodies on the market.

Only when you force absurd rules of "equality" on the comparison as you did in all of your examples. I roll my eyes and laugh when FF fans do this in forums. "Oh, I own a 135 f/2L so you would just HAVE to buy an 85 f/1.2L to be EQUIVALENT to me." No one is trying to be "equivalent" to FF down to the precise mm / subject distance / field depth. No one shoots like that and no one cares. Do FF users buy and adjust their lenses to be "equivalent" to MF shooters? LF? Such silliness is reserved for forum debates, not real life.

A 135 f/2L might be better then an 85 f/1.2L wide open, but it's not better then itself on FF vs. crop. (At least not after a touch more sharpening on crop which is true of all lenses but also a non issue.) "But DoF!!!" Yeah, usually I want a little more DoF, not less. 9/10 I find the shallow DoF on FF to be a frustration and not an advantage. And if you understand bokeh, you understand why there will be little to no difference in background blur in many situations. (Hint: for detail well outside the plane of focus the physical aperture size is the driving factor, not the format or DoF.)

Same thing for comparing one lens at f/8 and one at f/5. No one shoots like that. No one stands in broad daylight and thinks "on FF I would shoot f/8, but I want the EXACT same DoF on crop so I better shoot f/5." It's insulting to even suggest such nonsense.

There are areas where a given combination of lens and IQ is cheaper on crop (i.e. UWA zoom) and areas where it's cheaper on FF (i.e. fast "normal" prime). For most uses crop is cheaper overall with equal performance, though there are areas where FF clearly has an IQ advantage.

This thread was more civil before you got involved. Please keep your emotions for yourself.

Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #197 on: August 06, 2013, 03:08:53 PM »
I am not sure what Neuro actually said, but the fact is that the sensor size (not necessarily mp count or DR, or noise) is one of the most important factors in many types of photography, excluding macro and telephoto. To be more precise, it is one of the most important factors when you care, but then the same applies to lens choices, smartphone cameras vs. more serious ones, MF/LF vs. 35mm, etc.

Nope. At this stage in the game sensor size matters at high ISO and if you want to use certain lenses at their intended focal lengths. FF clearly has an advantage in low light photography, astrophotography, and in fast/wide primes and T/S lenses. People will cite DoF as a FF advantage but it cuts both ways.

DOF cuts one way only. When you want to go past, say, f/22 on DOF, diffraction limits resolution so much that you do not gain anything. There is no limit of how deep DOF you can get with any format. There is a limit however, with the available lenses, how shallow DOF you can get.

Quote
APS-C can have an advantage in size (though this isn't really the case with the 7D line) and cost for a given level of lens IQ and/or zoom range.

Actually, the cost benefit comes at a price: IQ. Most people would get more IQ that they want or need, no doubt about that. But APS-C is rarely a cost-effective way to get the same IQ, when this is possible, except in some specialized cases like macro and extreme telephoto, maybe. It is a great value, though.

Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #198 on: August 06, 2013, 03:15:40 PM »
Sure, of course the converse is true (I never stated otherwise). My point is that the fact that the 6D has a larger sensor than the 7D II will likely have does not intrinsically put it at a higher or lower ranking on any hypothetical scale.

So we actually agree. I said next several times, not above or below.

Quote
For those who need an APS-C sensor in a camera with high FPS and excellent AF, the 7D II would, for them, be the better choice than the 6D for sure, and in some cases even better than the 5D III, and certainly a far more accessible option than the 1D X (even at a price point of $2500!)

Not so sure about the AF. The 7D has more advanced but less accurate AF (aside from tracking and advanced capabilities) than the 5D2. Format differences play role here, too. In equivalent terms, the 7D's AF is f/4.5 (!).


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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #199 on: August 06, 2013, 04:01:07 PM »
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<p><strong>Canon EOS 7D Mark II<br />

</strong>We’re told there is zero chance of a 7D Mark II in 2013. The camera is currently slated for release in the second half of 2014. We’re told the final specifications of the camera are far from complete, but it will have the same 20.2mp sensor as the EOS 70D. As well as the Dual Pixel AF and built-in GPS. At present, it will not have wifi, though this could change for the final product.</p>
<p>This all seems very plausible. I would think Canon wants to see what kind of success they have with the revamped xxD line. The 70D looks like an APS-C winner spec wise, we’ll have to wait and see how people feel about it in the real world.</p>
<p>The same person also said a new lower end camera would be released in the first half of 2014. Nothing was mentioned about the fabled big megapixel camera that Canon is working on.</p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>

not the best news if true
I was hanging out for a 7D II being released this year in the hope of notable improvements as I liked the 1.6 crop effect and pixel density and the fps is higher than my 5D III
But it is the ISO performance that would have to improve for me to warrant buying one as I tend to shoot wildlife and good ISO performance is essential when unable to afford the big fast lenses and having used a friends one I have been a little bit deterred by the current ISO performance although it is not bad by any means I would just prefer better so bring on a 7D II with improved ISO and 10 fps wouldn't be sneezed at either.
I am a patient man though :-)

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #200 on: August 06, 2013, 04:09:50 PM »
Sure, of course the converse is true (I never stated otherwise). My point is that the fact that the 6D has a larger sensor than the 7D II will likely have does not intrinsically put it at a higher or lower ranking on any hypothetical scale.

So we actually agree. I said next several times, not above or below.

Sorry, guess I missed that (or maybe mistakenly attributed someone elses comment to you...apologies.) Glad we agree. :)

Quote
For those who need an APS-C sensor in a camera with high FPS and excellent AF, the 7D II would, for them, be the better choice than the 6D for sure, and in some cases even better than the 5D III, and certainly a far more accessible option than the 1D X (even at a price point of $2500!)

Not so sure about the AF. The 7D has more advanced but less accurate AF (aside from tracking and advanced capabilities) than the 5D2. Format differences play role here, too. In equivalent terms, the 7D's AF is f/4.5 (!).

I agree that the 7D's AF is advanced but inconsistent (even when tracking, even on slow mode, it still tends to jump around far too much). Its probably my biggest complaint with it, and why I sincerely hope the 7D II gets something much more like the 61pt AF of the 5D III/1D X. Accuracy, precision, and consistency would make the 7D II a much more viable "mini 1D X".

I'm curious about the f/4.5 bit...how exactly does that work? Is that only for the outer points? (I believe the center AF point is still f/2.8 compatible like with most Canon AF systems.)

Etienne

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #201 on: August 06, 2013, 04:14:42 PM »
To summarize:

Full-Frame is better at everything, Crop is cheaper.

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #201 on: August 06, 2013, 04:14:42 PM »

sagittariansrock

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #202 on: August 06, 2013, 04:25:55 PM »
I still see "Not having to buying somewhat expensive non-EF-S standard zoom and comically expensive longer glass" as a huge selling feature that is worth driving up the price of the 7D2.

As much as many folks on this forum believe there is a not-so-subtle attempt by Canon to push all 'gear spenders' into the FF column, isn't there also value in selling a very pricey rig that obviates the need to buy new glass? 

So in many situations, the crop body forces you to buy more expensive glass to get close (but not quite) to what FF can do.

In some cases, the more expensive glass offsets the greater expense of going FF altogether. And in some cases, you can actually make do with a cheaper glass. For example, don't you think Canon can charge few hundred dollars more to the birder who can now make do with a 500mm instead of a 800mm? Of course, he will not get the same quality, DoF, precision, etc. in a 7D vs a 1Dx/5DIII- but he might not need it, or might not want it, or might not be able to afford it. Sure, he can use  FF and crop, but even then he would be paying more anyway, wouldn't he? Given his situation, it might not be an option! So, in theory it is possible to up-sell an APS-C camera because it will reduce the overall cost. At the end of the day, going APS-C IS a compromise in IQ- whether for the sake of money, weight, frame rate, etc.
Each person's preferences are different- otherwise there would have been no landscape photographers in this forum, they would all be lugging medium format cameras in search of better IQ.
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schill

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #203 on: August 06, 2013, 04:28:55 PM »
To summarize:

Full-Frame is better at everything, Crop is cheaper.

Yeah.  I might as well just give up.  Why in the world did I ever buy my 7D in the first place.  :)

I guess I should dig up my Elan IIE.

Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #204 on: August 06, 2013, 04:32:15 PM »
I'm curious about the f/4.5 bit...how exactly does that work? Is that only for the outer points? (I believe the center AF point is still f/2.8 compatible like with most Canon AF systems.)

It works at f/2.8, of course, but that is equivalent to f/4.5, even though some people do not want to hear about that. Assuming that it has the same precision: 1/3 of DOF or so, it is 1/3 (or whatever) of the f/4.5 eq. DOF. It is like shooting with FF at f/4.5, with 1/3 DOF precision. Well, that is 1/3 of the DOF at f/4.5 Even if f/4.5 is all you need as DOF, your precision is lower. Some empirical evidence on that can be found on the FoCal site.


jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #205 on: August 06, 2013, 04:42:45 PM »
I'm curious about the f/4.5 bit...how exactly does that work? Is that only for the outer points? (I believe the center AF point is still f/2.8 compatible like with most Canon AF systems.)

It works at f/2.8, of course, but that is equivalent to f/4.5, even though some people do not want to hear about that. Assuming that it has the same precision: 1/3 of DOF or so, it is 1/3 (or whatever) of the f/4.5 eq. DOF. It is like shooting with FF at f/4.5, with 1/3 DOF precision. Well, that is 1/3 of the DOF at f/4.5 Even if f/4.5 is all you need as DOF, your precision is lower. Some empirical evidence on that can be found on the FoCal site.

Oh, your talking about DOF. Yeah, entirely agree, since you are cropping the field of view you may have to get farther back, so DOF would then increase. But that assumes you have to move back to frame your subject. Assuming you use a camera like the 7D II for its reach benefit, then its DOF would be the same as a FF with the same lens from the same distance. The only difference then would simply be that the 7D frame is cropped, resolved by a higher density sensor, and thus appears to be zoomed more. (There are CoC caveats, but that depends on output size, and there is no way to really nail that down....you could enlarge, reduce, crop, whatever.)

ahsanford

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #206 on: August 06, 2013, 04:57:20 PM »
To summarize:

Full-Frame is better at everything, Crop is cheaper.

My eyes are bleeding.   :P

Would love to see a wildlife/sports comparison of 7D vs. 6D.  I bet the 7D keeper rate and total number of keepers in an hour of shooting dwarfs the 6D.

- A (a FF guy!)

Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #207 on: August 06, 2013, 04:58:34 PM »
The only difference then would simply be that the 7D frame is cropped, resolved by a higher density sensor, and thus appears to be zoomed more.

And that decreases the DOF and magnifies the AF errors (just another way to say the same thing).

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #207 on: August 06, 2013, 04:58:34 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #208 on: August 06, 2013, 05:24:45 PM »
I find the shallow DoF on FF to be a frustration and not an advantage. And if you understand bokeh, you understand why there will be little to no difference in background blur in many situations. (Hint: for detail well outside the plane of focus the physical aperture size is the driving factor, not the format or DoF.)

Perhaps, if you have good physical separation between subject and background.  We don't always have that luxury. In terms of DoF, the crop sensor has NO advantage (except cost).  If you have FF and want deeper DoF, you just stop down.  The larger sensor offsets any need to raise ISO to maintain shutter speed. If you have APS-C and want shallower DoF, too bad for you.

For most uses crop is cheaper overall with equal performance, though there are areas where FF clearly has an IQ advantage.

Let me guess - you have a summer home in northern Alaska and a 'winter' home in Patagonia (where you live like a king), both with glass ceilings.  ;)  Where I live, we have this thing called night...and in winter, night is long.  Indoors often means at least ISO 3200, and I wouldn't say APS-C offers 'equal performance' then.
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schill

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #209 on: August 06, 2013, 05:33:04 PM »
Not that I have a whole lot of faith in this rumor anyway (it just doesn't make sense to me), but why is all of the discussion for this rumor about FF vs. crop now?

Why?  Because that always happens anyway.

Does anyone seriously think that if there is a 7DII, it will be FF?

I can understand a discussion about whether Canon can get better IQ out of a new cropped sensor than they do out of the current sensors, but I don't really see the point about discussing FF (although I have been reading the posts so I guess I can't complain too much).

Maybe there should be a thread specifically about why you should buy a 5DIII now instead of waiting for a 7DII (that's meant to be tongue-in-cheek - I think there are already quite a few of those threads spread across the internet).

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR2]
« Reply #209 on: August 06, 2013, 05:33:04 PM »