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Author Topic: Canon 70d RAW Samples  (Read 22012 times)

Marsu42

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 06:14:41 AM »
But how does it look like when comparing ISO 100?

The differences for low iso are dynamic range, maybe a little sharpness depending on lens/sensor combination but esp. gradients and shadow post processing capability... in the plain color chart you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but feel free to download LR5.2rc yourself and post a comparison :-)

If you didn't say these were from the 70D, I couldn't tell the difference between that and a 7D.

There *might* be more headroom for noise reduction in the 20mp crop sensor, just like 5d2->5d3, but I didn't test that as it's not the final raw converter. But yes, the sensor isn't a reason to upgrade on its own.

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 06:14:41 AM »

CarlTN

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 04:34:09 PM »
That's a ho-hum improvement in my opinion. 

It's a good improvement - just not the 1-2 stops improvement that switching to the 6D, for example, can provide 8).

Oh well. In case there have been any doubts, it should be clear by now that huge jumps
in image quality between successive sensor generations are just not possible ... unfortunately.

The Nikon D7100's sensor is still superior to the 70D's (in DR and noise...and resolution)...not that I like Nikon as a company or a system.  But there you go...it is possible to get a better crop sensor...by switching to Nikon...or even Sony.

Again, this makes me very disappointed in the future 7D2.  It was supposed to be a "professional level" crop camera.  Well, the sensor doesn't look like it will be professional level.  It's a 2014 camera...5 years after the 7D's debut.

Obviously crop sensor performance will never be a priority for Canon...at least not before 2020 at this rate.  I'm not even sure how seriously they have ever taken crop sensor performance, but it seems like it meant more to them before 2008, than it does now.  And there will be 50 different "rebel" and "M" models using this sensor, as if it's some kind of magical device...YAWN...

David Hull

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2013, 11:29:43 AM »
... and look in awe what nearly half a decade of crop sensor development has resulted in!

Well, if you look at the competition, the latest 24mp sensors from Sony and Toshiba are no different from the 70D.
Also look at FF: how big is the difference between the 5DMKII (2008) and 6D/5DMKIII (2012)?

Sensor tech may not have reached a plateau but it has definitely reached maturity. For both APS-C and FF.
So, enhancements are becoming more and more incremental rather than groundbreaking.

Thanks for making these comparisons available, btw.
I understand why people are comparing these things on the top end of the ISO scale (a lot of people are concerned about low light performance) but I don't understand why people are expecting to see dramatic differences there.  As you point out, there haven’t been any for quite some time.  For people who want the best in low light performance, that is where FF shines.

jrista

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2013, 11:44:55 AM »
Also, if you enjoy a good laugh here's the newest crop sensor vs the good ol' ff from the 6d :-> ... the larger sensor nearly has a 2 stop edge, though probably not at the same dynamic range:

Thanks for the comparisons. Pretty excellent demonstration of the value of larger pixels at high ISO. :)
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dash2k8

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2013, 09:40:46 PM »
For those complaining about lack of a major upgrade in technology, I think the easiest solution is to just buy a 1DX and live merrily ever after. Face it, at 70D's price point, you're not going to get anything close to a 5D3. The target audience is enthusiasts. If you do this for a living, you're not supposed to even consider something with two numbers (xxD), right? IMHO the 70D's prelim images have shown that it is a great performer IN ITS CLASS.

x-vision

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2013, 11:53:23 PM »
More RAW samples from DPreview:
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/9

Overall, just subtle improvements over the 18mp sensor.
Dynamic range (DR) is still behind Sony/Nikon (e.g. D7100) but ISO/noise is on par.

One thing to note is that the 70D renders colors the same way as the 6D.
Probably both are using new color filters compared to previous models.
As a result, colors are actually more accurate (albeit appearing somewhat less punchy).

Bennymiata

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 01:10:46 AM »
The big advance that none of you has mentioned, is the dual pixel focussing system, which for those of you who use live view, and/or take video, this could be a godsend.
Combine this with the rear touch-screen, where you can just touch where you want the exact focus point to be, and you can get great video out of it, without the hassle of manual focus.
Let alone Wi-Fi etc.

For many of its intended customers (and I don't include professionals here), the touch-screen, good autofocus for live view and video will be what drives them towards the 70D.
Ultimate pixel-peeping ability is not high on many people's list, although they want good quality, and half of these wouldn't even know what ISO is anyway.

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 01:10:46 AM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 01:42:53 AM »
More RAW samples from DPreview:
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/9

Overall, just subtle improvements over the 18mp sensor.
Dynamic range (DR) is still behind Sony/Nikon (e.g. D7100) but ISO/noise is on par.

One thing to note is that the 70D renders colors the same way as the 6D.
Probably both are using new color filters compared to previous models.
As a result, colors are actually more accurate (albeit appearing somewhat less punchy).

Actually the 6D scored the lowest ever for a DSLR on the metamism index score at DxO for natural daylight shooting which would imply the most color-blind, least color discrimination of any DSLR.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 01:44:04 AM »
More RAW samples from DPreview:
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/9

Overall, just subtle improvements over the 18mp sensor.
Dynamic range (DR) is still behind Sony/Nikon (e.g. D7100) but ISO/noise is on par.

One thing to note is that the 70D renders colors the same way as the 6D.
Probably both are using new color filters compared to previous models.
As a result, colors are actually more accurate (albeit appearing somewhat less punchy).

Actually the 6D scored the lowest ever for a DSLR on the metamism index score at DxO for natural daylight shooting which would imply the most color-blind, least color discrimination of any DSLR. Not by a little either. Although it is a tricky thing and perhaps some colors are more important than others and who knows where the color filter made it what.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 01:54:15 AM »
Also, if you enjoy a good laugh here's the newest crop sensor vs the good ol' ff from the 6d :-> ... the larger sensor nearly has a 2 stop edge, though probably not at the same dynamic range:

FF also has 2.56x time the light collecting surface area so it's no surprise it does much better when you are not reach limited.

As for the probable modest gain at high ISO as some of us have said the cameras are already so good there that it's very hard to make them a ton better without making using active cooling or something, some totally new tech, and even then the mid-tone SNR can't be improved much although they shadows and DR could go up a lot I guess, but with today's tech that seems tricky/expensive/heavy/messy (active cooling pipes burst :D). People forget how amazingly efficient they are at photon capture already, more than half way to perfection (according to laws of physics) so there really isn't any room for 3-4 stops better or anything at all like people are asking for. If they could radically reduce read noise even more you could expand DR which is pretty low at high ISO, but it seems, as I said, that it might be tricky without costly/heavy stuff like active cooling or something. Not sure.

I guess does have a little room there for SNR as they are at the top but with more color-blind color filters, if they get a bit more efficient they could strengthen color filters again so you could maybe tighten those up a bunch and get another 1/2 stop better SNR.

At low ISO Canon has a LOT of room to get better though and it's perfectly possible on that end since everyone else has already done it. You have to be willing to invest in a new design and sensor fab, so far Canon seems to refuse.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 02:10:09 AM »
The big advance that none of you has mentioned, is the dual pixel focussing system, which for those of you who use live view, and/or take video, this could be a godsend.
Combine this with the rear touch-screen, where you can just touch where you want the exact focus point to be, and you can get great video out of it, without the hassle of manual focus.
Let alone Wi-Fi etc.

For many of its intended customers (and I don't include professionals here), the touch-screen, good autofocus for live view and video will be what drives them towards the 70D.
Ultimate pixel-peeping ability is not high on many people's list, although they want good quality, and half of these wouldn't even know what ISO is anyway.

The dual pixel AF was mentioned and praised in other threads, but this thread was title RAW image samples so....

but yeah the dual pxiel AF does look cool

x-vision

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2013, 03:41:04 AM »
Actually the 6D scored the lowest ever for a DSLR on the metamism index score at DxO for natural daylight shooting which would imply the most color-blind, least color discrimination of any DSLR.

Heh. Canon keeps doing that. Really annoying.
So, that's how the 6D achieves its high ISO performance.
Thanks for pointing it out.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 03:44:59 AM by x-vision »

jrista

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2013, 10:32:13 AM »
Also, if you enjoy a good laugh here's the newest crop sensor vs the good ol' ff from the 6d :-> ... the larger sensor nearly has a 2 stop edge, though probably not at the same dynamic range:

FF also has 2.56x time the light collecting surface area so it's no surprise it does much better when you are not reach limited.

As for the probable modest gain at high ISO as some of us have said the cameras are already so good there that it's very hard to make them a ton better without making using active cooling or something, some totally new tech, and even then the mid-tone SNR can't be improved much although they shadows and DR could go up a lot I guess, but with today's tech that seems tricky/expensive/heavy/messy (active cooling pipes burst :D). People forget how amazingly efficient they are at photon capture already, more than half way to perfection (according to laws of physics) so there really isn't any room for 3-4 stops better or anything at all like people are asking for. If they could radically reduce read noise even more you could expand DR which is pretty low at high ISO, but it seems, as I said, that it might be tricky without costly/heavy stuff like active cooling or something. Not sure.

I guess does have a little room there for SNR as they are at the top but with more color-blind color filters, if they get a bit more efficient they could strengthen color filters again so you could maybe tighten those up a bunch and get another 1/2 stop better SNR.

At low ISO Canon has a LOT of room to get better though and it's perfectly possible on that end since everyone else has already done it. You have to be willing to invest in a new design and sensor fab, so far Canon seems to refuse.

Active cooling doesn't necessarily have to involve a liquid coolant. A TEC (ThermoElectric Cooler, or Peltier) could be used as an electronic heat pump, along with a copper heat plate and heat pipes to draw heat off and release it at areas along the body. It would add some weight, but it could also improve SNR at high ISO by a useful amount. I am not saying you could cool the sensor to -80C or achieve 90% Q.E...but you could probably improve Q.E. into the 70% range, and reduce dark current noise by an order of magnitude or two. The difference wouldn't be immense, but I think it could be useful, and visibly improve IQ at high ISO. I don't think that would mean we suddenly see usable ISO 102k or anything like that...but ISO 25.6k and 51.2k might become viable for real-world stuff, publication online and in print, etc.
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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2013, 10:32:13 AM »

CarlTN

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2013, 03:51:20 PM »
More RAW samples from DPreview:
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/9

Overall, just subtle improvements over the 18mp sensor.
Dynamic range (DR) is still behind Sony/Nikon (e.g. D7100) but ISO/noise is on par.

One thing to note is that the 70D renders colors the same way as the 6D.
Probably both are using new color filters compared to previous models.
As a result, colors are actually more accurate (albeit appearing somewhat less punchy).

Actually the 6D scored the lowest ever for a DSLR on the metamism index score at DxO for natural daylight shooting which would imply the most color-blind, least color discrimination of any DSLR. Not by a little either. Although it is a tricky thing and perhaps some colors are more important than others and who knows where the color filter made it what.

Not sure why you posted this twice.  I think the correct term is "metamerism index".  Not sure why the 6D would measure poorly in the test, other than DXO performed it, and the 6D is not made by Nikon.  Certainly the color in the images presents no problems, in any available light that I have used it in.

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2013, 04:46:11 PM »
Actually the 6D scored the lowest ever for a DSLR on the metamism index score at DxO for natural daylight shooting which would imply the most color-blind, least color discrimination of any DSLR. Not by a little either. Although it is a tricky thing and perhaps some colors are more important than others and who knows where the color filter made it what.

Not sure why you posted this twice.  I think the correct term is "metamerism index".  Not sure why the 6D would measure poorly in the test, other than DXO performed it, and the 6D is not made by Nikon.  Certainly the color in the images presents no problems, in any available light that I have used it in.

I have to agree with LetTheRightLensIn. The metamerism index, if I remember correctly, is a possible measure of how close the color vision of the camera is to the human one, in certain light. It is hard to say what the difference, say, between 70 and 80 in reality is, and one number does not say it all, but it is a fact that this number has been declining since the 5D. The higher QE compensates for that to some extent.

One possible explanation is that the CFA filters optimized for colors/spectrum that "matter", as LetTheRightLensIn said. Here is a link to an article which looks well written to me, but I read only parts of it:

http://dougkerr.net/pumpkin/articles/Metameric_Error.pdf

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Re: Canon 70d RAW Samples
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2013, 04:46:11 PM »