September 17, 2014, 01:52:12 PM

Author Topic: The last Canon crop sensor - ever  (Read 35225 times)

unfocused

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2101
    • View Profile
    • Unfocused: A photo website
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2013, 12:24:26 PM »

Biggest trend?  Most people are now only viewing their photos on Facebook or other monitor driven device and the IQ of the monitor/device is a major limiting factor in IQ and not necessarily the camera that takes the picture....

I don't think FF will die, but you can see the film FF market being very different from the digital FF market.

Yes, I lumped Facebook and social media generally into the category of pictures living on the Internet, but that doesn't really do it justice. Social media has radically changed how people view and share pictures and most of us dinosaurs on this forum (I include myself in that category, by the way) are pretty clueless when it comes to these trends.

The mere fact that Canon can release a video camera that has, as its primary purpose, allowing people to take movies of themselves skateboarding, dancing, singing, etc., speaks volumes about where they see the growth in the market.
pictures sharp. life not so much. www.unfocusedmg.com

canon rumors FORUM

Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2013, 12:24:26 PM »

ZiggyDeath

  • SX50 HS
  • **
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2013, 12:31:35 PM »
If one were to look at sales numbers, profitability and general trends in technology, a much better case could be made that full frame is the format that is heading toward oblivion.

Trend: Other Technologies – Software development is not standing still. Improvements in noise reduction, sharpness and resizing programming will further narrow the visible differences between APS-C and full frame.

I am not saying that full frame is dead or dying. But the truth is, if one wants to pursue this pointless argument, you need to look at all the trends, not just look at what camera manufacturers are doing as they try to capture a share of a relatively stagnant market.
I'd like to point out that the counter-argument to this particular argument is that it depends on Full Frame technology remaining stagnant. I believe it's a common argumentative mistake to assume everything else will remain the same.

For example:
Yes, cellphone and small sensor technology has improved vastly over the past few years, and it even rivals or supercedes P&S from 5-6 years ago, but how does it compare to a modern P&S - it is still inferior in most aspects.

Then there's the question of scalability, if a cellphone sensor is "good enough" can it be scaled to a larger format, and for most electronics the answer is yes.

So that brings us back to the question of APS-C and FF becoming obsolete, they won't become obsolete as long as the technology in them is updated.

Here's another example with something we're all using these days, processors. The current fabrication of processors has resulted in more and more transistors being packed into a small space - in fact the overall size of the processor is tiny in comparison to the 8086 of three decades ago. Now the shrinking of the processor is the fact that we can continue to make transistors smaller and smaller, once that limit has been reached we will be forced to make them bigger and bigger, physically; though technically speaking, if one were to only measure the size of a processor by transistor count it has gotten a bajillion times bigger. So because the physical limit, in the case of processors, is the size of transistors, we can make a better unit in the same size - but we've chosen to make them physically smaller because we have made them more efficient space wise because we can do more with less, this applies both to each actual transistor as well as size.

Now the problem with optical sensors is that by definition they're limited by size. It's not that we can't continue adding megapixels to cameras, the problem is with the optics themselves. The more megapixels we add, to a given size, the less forgiving the sensor will be to imperfections. Yes, we can fix the problems through software manipulation but that doesn't change the fact that you can do the same fixing on a larger unit.

Perhaps a more comparable analogy is car engine. These days, days we can coax power comparable to a V8 from yesteryear out of a V6. However a modern large V8, with the same technology as those turbo'd 6's, has more power.

The question really comes down to, will there be a demand for large FF sensors and if it's profitable or not for the manufacturer to produce them. Manufacturer have many ways to approach how to scale the technology:

1. They can physically just scale the sensor to a larger size, maintaining the same megapixel count - meaning that given the same technology, you'll have more sensitive/accurate pixels

2. They can scale the sensor to a larger size as a ratio - meaning you have a much larger FOV (crop factor) while maintaining an overall "same quality" as the smaller sensor
- Some manufacturers have done something similar to this through sensor stitching

As it currently stands, most manufacturers have taken some kind of middle ground.

TL;DR Version
The advantages of a larger sensor will always be maintained as long as you aren't comparing different generations - and that's one of the biggest people make when they claim obsolescence. m43 is a great example of this, it has come a long way to challenge or even beat (depending how you look at it) the tried and tested Canon 18mp, but that sensor is 5 years old; that m43 scaled up to APS-C will beat the m43.


edit: I would be screaming "TAKE MY MONEY" if they fit a FF sensor into the SL1, which is my current dSLR. Looking at the mount, I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to: from a technological standpoint.

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4484
  • POTATO
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2013, 01:28:32 PM »
So here we are ... 2013, almost 2014.  Canon has over a decade of churning out APS-C based cameras.  Canon releases the 6D with FF sensor, that you can now pickup for less than a 7D.  Bodies are made smaller, functionality is increasing, and seemingly limited only by firmware.

Is there an evolutionary path which leaves APS-C behind or exclusively for the point and shoot market?

What if Canon just said 'No more crop for us.  We're in the FF business.  Our cheapest DSLR is 999.99 and that's just the way it is.'

I think this is coming.  3 years from now ... APS-C is going the way of the buggy whip.

Well, assuming this isn't sarcasm: Nah.

Canon sells more APS-C parts than FF parts. Always has, probably always will. APS-C is the consumer DSLR, and now also Canon's mirrorless. I think it is also naive to think that "everyone" can afford a FF camera. Most of the people I know who do photography complain about how much their T3i cost, and quibble over a $20 difference between the $450 Sigma and the $430 Tamron.

APS-C isn't going anywhere any time soon. Until something radical comes along that makes CMOS sensors obsolete, and makes it cheap and cost effective to build cameras with 4x5" medium format alternative sensors, I don't suspect it ever will.
My Photography
Current Gear: Canon 5D III | Canon 7D | Canon EF 600mm f/4 L IS II | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS | EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L | EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro | 50mm f/1.4
New Gear List: SBIG STT-8300M | Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 L II

ooF Fighters

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2013, 01:53:22 PM »
"The next generation of Buggy Whips available June 10"
Get 'em here-
http://www.buggy-whips.com/

Dantana

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 123
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2013, 02:00:25 PM »
No way.

Different tools for different jobs, needs and budgets.

Do I covet FF? Yes, I do. I would like to be able to shoot in lower light without flash. I'd like to take advantage of the shallower DOF and the fact that lenses would be the same to me as they were when I was shooting on film. But it's not for everyone on every budget, for every job, or size of kit.

A crop sensor camera paired with smaller EF-S lenses is a nice compact package that I think a lot of enthusiasts would appreciate on vacation.

A fast crop sensor body vs a slow ff body seems like a better fit for sports at a relatively equal budget.

Oh, and the 6D is not the same price as the 7D. I'd have one in my hand right now if it was.

As someone else said in a previous post, the 6D and 7D are like apples and oranges. I think they would make a great combo. And I also like apples and oranges, but I tend not to compare them.
6D, 20 2.8, 35 2.0, 40 2.8, 85 1.8, 200 2.8L, 24-105 4L, 2x III, Speedlite 430EX II, Rokinon 14 2.8

Skulker

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
  • PP is no vice and as shot is no virtue
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2013, 02:23:05 PM »

It's the one thing that bugs me on this forum.  That you can only aspire to full frame.  That you can only aspire to the most expensive best of kit.

Far be it from me to be picky but ....

Is it me? or is that two things?

Time to claim you were being sarcastic, that seems to be the latest trend to cover up a mistack  ;D
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

Skulker

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
  • PP is no vice and as shot is no virtue
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2013, 02:28:24 PM »
Being a nature / wildlife photographer, I would not want to see APS-C disappear if only for the crop factor advantage.  In fact, I would love to see a 1-series crop sensor body....

With increased pixel densities, cropping can be a setting in your FF camera, like with Nikon.

I cant see the point in the cropping being set in camera. Sure you save some on storage and transfer time, but I can't see that it would be very useful. How often is that going to be the crop you want. I crop almost all my shots a bit. But I bet its hardly ever just the center part of the image at exactly that crop size.
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2013, 02:28:24 PM »

robbinzo

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2013, 02:51:43 PM »
Add more little cross-type(AF points) to 6D and give it 1-3 more fps, I think people will be over it, including me.

+1
70D, 10-22mm EFS, 17-40mm L, 15-85mm EFS, 100L macro, 50mm f/1.4

schill

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2013, 03:01:52 PM »
Being a nature / wildlife photographer, I would not want to see APS-C disappear if only for the crop factor advantage.  In fact, I would love to see a 1-series crop sensor body....

With increased pixel densities, cropping can be a setting in your FF camera, like with Nikon.

I cant see the point in the cropping being set in camera. Sure you save some on storage and transfer time, but I can't see that it would be very useful. How often is that going to be the crop you want. I crop almost all my shots a bit. But I bet its hardly ever just the center part of the image at exactly that crop size.

I think the point is speed.  By only grabbing the center of the image on the sensor, you don't have to write as much into the buffer or the card.  You potentially get higher fps that way.

It doesn't really have anything to do with "artistic" cropping decisions.

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3674
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2013, 03:07:13 PM »
So here we are ... 2013, almost 2014.  Canon has over a decade of churning out APS-C based cameras.  Canon releases the 6D with FF sensor, that you can now pickup for less than a 7D.  Bodies are made smaller, functionality is increasing, and seemingly limited only by firmware.

Is there an evolutionary path which leaves APS-C behind or exclusively for the point and shoot market?

What if Canon just said 'No more crop for us.  We're in the FF business.  Our cheapest DSLR is 999.99 and that's just the way it is.'

I think this is coming.  3 years from now ... APS-C is going the way of the buggy whip.

I doubt it. You can make the body smaller with aps-c, the sensors still cost a bit less and FF sensors with enough reach to make up for things will probably only just be starting to get established in FF then. Perhaps in 10 years, although maybe the costs and size will always make at least a few aps-c models stick around.

You certainly can't say the 6D replaces APS-C, since the body performance specs are lower than a 7D and it has a ton less reach.

Also there is the fact that a tamron 17-50 non-VC or heck even an 18-55 IS kit can deliver pretty sharp edge to edge results on APS-C and they cost like maybe $500 and $150 or something? To get those ranges on FF sharp edge to edge you need to spend at least $1025+ or rely on a couple primes (especially when you talk 80MP density FF, you might almost need the $2000+ 24-70 II zoom).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 03:12:38 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3674
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2013, 03:19:02 PM »
Being a nature / wildlife photographer, I would not want to see APS-C disappear if only for the crop factor advantage.  In fact, I would love to see a 1-series crop sensor body....

With increased pixel densities, cropping can be a setting in your FF camera, like with Nikon.

I cant see the point in the cropping being set in camera. Sure you save some on storage and transfer time, but I can't see that it would be very useful. How often is that going to be the crop you want. I crop almost all my shots a bit. But I bet its hardly ever just the center part of the image at exactly that crop size.

Man that would be INSANELY useful!! Canon needs to dump the sRAW/mRAW garbage and give high speed crop modes. All sRAW/mRAW is give you a pseudo-RAW file at much reduced quality, while a cropped mode gives you a real, full quality (in reach limited situations) RAW file at potential higher fps (of course it is true that the mechanical mirror box has to keep up and that is really the expensive part but we definitely have been transfer speed limited more than mirror box limited quite a few times so....) and a BIG savings in storage space.

You use the mode when you are reach limited, not to make minor artist cropping decisions, which as you say, doesn't even make any sense.

What if you are shooting distant birds/wildlife? Why not have a 80MP FF jump from say 3fps to 7fps and why not have each file go from 80MP storage to like 30MP storage? Why do you need to store all the extra border junk that you don't care about and have it slow the fps down? For quite a few people, APS-C is solely about fps and reach so with a FF with crop mode it becomes an APS-C when in crop mode once sensor densities start getting to be like 48MP and above for FF.

Mt Spokane Photography

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 8637
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2013, 03:26:04 PM »
It's the one thing that bugs me on this forum.  That you can only aspire to full frame.  That you can only aspire to the most expensive best of kit.

It does seem to get a little ridiculous sometimes, doesn't it?

It does indeed.

If one were to look at sales numbers, profitability and general trends in technology, a much better case could be made that full frame is the format that is heading toward oblivion.

Trend: Cell Phone Cameras – Research and development dollars are going into improving the sensors in cell phones, which has become the major feature differentiating the brands of cell phones. Cell phones are now the camera of choice for most of the population. Lessons learned in improving the quality of sensors for cell phones are much more applicable to APS-C and smaller sensors than to full frame sensors.

Trend: Mirrorless – In the mirrorless world, APS-C sensors are the big boys. Full frame mirrorless is a virtually non-existent niche market, but more and more manufacturers are turning to APS-C for their flagship mirrorless bodies.

Trend: Small DSLRs – Canon is at the leading edge here with the SL1. Whether or not other manufacturers follow is likely to depend on how successful they are. But, certainly it's an innovative approach that shows Canon is looking at ways to expand the appeal of their APS-C offerings.

Trend: Manufacturing Costs – APS-C remains cheaper to produce and the research dollars can be spread over a much broader base: EOS-M, SL1, Rebels, XXD and 7D. Canon only offers three full frame cameras and each has its own sensor.

Trend: Other Technologies – Software development is not standing still. Improvements in noise reduction, sharpness and resizing programming will further narrow the visible differences between APS-C and full frame.

Trend: Output – Already, most images live on computer screens. In fact, the vast majority of images probably live on cell phones. An iPad or similar tablet device is about the best you can expect for most of your images.

Trend: Output II – If a picture isn't living at 72-100 ppi on a tablet device, it's probably living in a self-published book, at a maximum size of about 11 or 12 inches (usually smaller) and with all the compromises of CMYK printing.

Trend: Output III – For that tiny fraction of images that finally end up as a print on someone's wall, the printing technology is also advancing and, like everything else, the emphasis is on getting the best possible output from APS-C and smaller format files.

I am not saying that full frame is dead or dying. But the truth is, if one wants to pursue this pointless argument, you need to look at all the trends, not just look at what camera manufacturers are doing as they try to capture a share of a relatively stagnant market.

Camera manufacturers are going to produce even more DSLR's, since P&S and mirrorless sales are tanking.  Its really hurting Nikon, and Canon is dumping the "M" in hopes of buying in to the market.
Expect to see lots of APS-C P&S cameras soon, that is something experts predict. 
 
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/08/08/nikon-cuts-2013-sales-forecast-citing-poor-mirrorless-camera-sales
 
 

AJ

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 409
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2013, 03:49:13 PM »
Here we go again.

Ever since the APSC-sized sensors came out, people have been wondering if it's just a stop gap, something that's gonna go away in a short while.  Well guess what, it hasn't.

APSC is popular.  Manufacturers keep making more and keep selling more of them.  That's because people like the format.  APSC is the new 35 mm.


canon rumors FORUM

Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2013, 03:49:13 PM »

can0nfan2379

  • Rebel SL1
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2013, 04:07:30 PM »
Being a nature / wildlife photographer, I would not want to see APS-C disappear if only for the crop factor advantage.  In fact, I would love to see a 1-series crop sensor body....

With increased pixel densities, cropping can be a setting in your FF camera, like with Nikon.

That is true, however from a cost standpoint if one were to make a crop sensor 1-series, they should be able to do it at a lower price point (than a full-frame) since it is a smaller sensor.  Whether or not the company would want to pass along some savings to their customers is another thing...
5D3  |  Zeiss ZE 21/2.8  |  Zeiss ZE 50/2.0  |  EF 85 1.2LII  |  EF 70-200 2.8L IS I  |  EF 300 2.8L IS I  |  EF 500 4L IS I  |  TC 1.4x III  |  RRS MH-01 + MC34  |  F-Stop Tilopa BC

Snaps

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 04:37:13 PM »
FF still has a small minority in the DSLR market, compared to APS-C, so it's not going away any time soon. And the picture quality of most newer APS-C DSLR's are so good that for the majority of folks, it's not going to matter. There will be photographers who have to have the best of the best, but the quality of glass can have a tremendous effect on that, sometimes even more than the size of the sensor.
7D | Rebel XSi | Fujifilm X20 | EF-S 10-22mm | EF-S 60mm Macro | Sigma 30mm F1.4 | EF 70-300mm L | Helios 44-2

canon rumors FORUM

Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 04:37:13 PM »