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Author Topic: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D  (Read 10007 times)

dstppy

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 03:37:37 PM »
forgive the naive question....this is for video purposes only correct? or their still applications for this as well?

Definitely useful for stills, provided the loss of resolution isn't an issue for your needs.

Since the trolls have already gotten in before the lock, can you wow us with the loss-of-resolution specifics?  That way it can be ignored and people can continue to argue :)
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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 03:37:37 PM »

planetMitch

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 04:27:48 PM »
This is intriguing but I have to admit ever since I bought my first 5DII a few years ago, I've been scared you-know-what-less to even think about putting ML on my bodies.  I'm now up to a 5DIII and still can't imagine putting unwarranted third party software on such an expensive device.  The prospect of turning my 5DIII in to a $3000 paperweight when something goes wrong is just too terrifying a prospect to contemplate.  And lest anyone accuse me of being a weak-kneed sissy on the subject, I have a master's degree in software engineering and work daily with custom-built, multi-million dollar software systems for the U.S. Air Force, some designed and written by me, some by others.  So I know the risks.  Software has often been described as the single most complex construct every devised by the mind of man.  The level of complexity and unpredictability in even the simplest software solutions can reach mind boggling proportions.  Once a software program advances beyond the typical, single line "Hello World" level of complexity, it can quickly become next to impossible to identify every possible execution path through the code, much less have the time and money to test all of those execution paths with every possible range of input and output parameters.  There are "best practice" approaches to keep the complexity level - and thus the testatbility, predictability, and maintainability - to within reasonable levels.  But in the end, it's still a might big risk to take if Canon is going to slam the door in your face when you come calling with a bricked and useless camera that got that way because you put a piece of unauthorized third party software on it.

I'm not saying anyone who uses ML should stop, but before I took that plunge, I sure would like to hear about the experiences - both good and bad - from a whole hell of a lot of people who have actually used it.

Magic Lantern is safe as you can get. As far as I've been able to tell, there aren't any bricks as a result of Magic Lantern. Not saying it can't happen, but as this is loaded in memory and memory gets wiped when you hard re-boot your camera (taking the battery out), the odds of it happening are pretty slim.

Will I guarantee it? No - but that's because I'm not a Magic Lantern developer and I don't know what is in the code. But my research hasn't found any bricked cameras because of Magic Lantern.

gbchriste

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 05:17:39 PM »
This is intriguing but I have to admit ever since I bought my first 5DII a few years ago, I've been scared you-know-what-less to even think about putting ML on my bodies.  I'm now up to a 5DIII and still can't imagine putting unwarranted third party software on such an expensive device.  The prospect of turning my 5DIII in to a $3000 paperweight when something goes wrong is just too terrifying a prospect to contemplate.  And lest anyone accuse me of being a weak-kneed sissy on the subject, I have a master's degree in software engineering and work daily with custom-built, multi-million dollar software systems for the U.S. Air Force, some designed and written by me, some by others.  So I know the risks.  Software has often been described as the single most complex construct every devised by the mind of man.  The level of complexity and unpredictability in even the simplest software solutions can reach mind boggling proportions.  Once a software program advances beyond the typical, single line "Hello World" level of complexity, it can quickly become next to impossible to identify every possible execution path through the code, much less have the time and money to test all of those execution paths with every possible range of input and output parameters.  There are "best practice" approaches to keep the complexity level - and thus the testatbility, predictability, and maintainability - to within reasonable levels.  But in the end, it's still a might big risk to take if Canon is going to slam the door in your face when you come calling with a bricked and useless camera that got that way because you put a piece of unauthorized third party software on it.

I'm not saying anyone who uses ML should stop, but before I took that plunge, I sure would like to hear about the experiences - both good and bad - from a whole hell of a lot of people who have actually used it.

Magic Lantern is safe as you can get. As far as I've been able to tell, there aren't any bricks as a result of Magic Lantern. Not saying it can't happen, but as this is loaded in memory and memory gets wiped when you hard re-boot your camera (taking the battery out), the odds of it happening are pretty slim.

Will I guarantee it? No - but that's because I'm not a Magic Lantern developer and I don't know what is in the code. But my research hasn't found any bricked cameras because of Magic Lantern.

Direclty from the ML FAQ Page (bold text in original text at http://wiki.magiclantern.fm/faq#is_it_safe] [url]http://wiki.magiclantern.fm/faq#is_it_safe[/url])

Is it safe?

No. Magic Lantern was created by reverse engineering an undocumented system that controls hardware. Therefore, we can't be certain that it's 100% safe.

Magic Lantern does not replace Canon code (which is stored in ROM), but it does change the settings (which are saved to a non-volatile memory). If Magic Lantern would set incorrect values for certain settings, this may cause the camera not to boot (even without ML).

The same risk is present if you use third party software for USB remote control. These programs use the same API for changing camera settings (properties), and Canon code does not always check the validity of the settings before saving them to NVRAM. Here's a proof. Even developers of USB control software, who use Canon's own SDK, agree with this.

Imagine that your config file gets corrupted and you can't just delete it and start from scratch. We consider this a design flaw in Canon software. We did encounter such problems during development, but we were able to recover from them. For technical details, see Unbricking.

Probably the safest way to run Magic Lantern (or any third party camera control software) is to use custom modes - in these modes, Canon code does not save user settings to NVRAM.

In practice, we are doing our best to prevent these situations, and thousands of users are enjoying it without problems. However, this does not represent a guarantee - use it at your own risk.

Actually, using Magic Lantern we have successfully unbricked a 5D Mark II damaged by a USB remote controller app.


Caps18

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2013, 05:28:52 PM »
We sent a 50D off to get an IR filter removed, and now you have to remove the battery before it turns back on...

So, there might be little bugs when you mess with it.  I like to let other people try it out first too.  I can't afford too many $2000 mistakes.

But, if it works, I might be interested in this.  I have a 5Dm2 and would like more dynamic range.
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gmrza

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2013, 06:41:12 PM »
My question IS; Why if ML can do it, Why won't Canon? not why can't Canon? As I've said for years Can/NIK keep feeding us dribbles instead of state of the art. If they used bit slice ADCs they could do much better also.

I think part of the problem for Canon is explaining the loss of resolution, and the complicated process of generating an image afterwards. - It is possible that the Digic IV may not have had enough grunt to build the code into the camera to combine the two images afterwards without too much of a delay after taking a shot, or Canon didn't want to build it into DPP.  Then there is the complication of explaining to people that they need both files. - Just too many ways for "dumb" users to get it wrong, creating a support/marketing nightmare for Canon.
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Rowbear

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2013, 07:08:26 PM »
Pardon my ignorance, but is Canon simply playing it safe compared to what ML is doing here, as these acks seem to push the limits of the sensors closer to the edge of reliability ?

For example, I know that the engine in my car (any car for that matter) could produce a lot more power, but for reliability reasons, Toyota is lowering its output to make the engine easier on gas, smoother, etc ?

sjprg

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2013, 08:22:51 PM »
The issue in not are you "pushing the sensor" but what you are doing with the technology that reads the sensor.
 Canon in their efforts to satisfy the "machine gun photographers", "spray and pray" disregard the needs of the landscape photographer who only need a frame maybe every 10 seconds.
ADCs by their nature require current which is instead used for the FPS crowd. This puts Canon at least 20 years behind the ADC technology. Coupled with unspecified processors produced on old high current CPU technology making a tradeoff in battery shots per charge a requirement. Canon HAS the technology and the smarts to do much better, but prefers to milk the market. I don't know the current price of the sensor chip but the rest of the parts in the 1DSIII can't come to more than $200USD in the quantities they purchase . They depend upon the fact that very few photographers have an engineering background actually designing equipment so their markup can be grossly inflated.
The days of the 50% gross margin are long gone and it's get what ever the traffic will bear.

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2013, 08:22:51 PM »

NormanBates

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2013, 03:28:12 AM »
forgive the naive question....this is for video purposes only correct? or their still applications for this as well?

Definitely useful for stills, provided the loss of resolution isn't an issue for your needs.

Since the trolls have already gotten in before the lock, can you wow us with the loss-of-resolution specifics?  That way it can be ignored and people can continue to argue :)

The loss of resolution comes because you're reading odd line-pairs at one ISO (say, 100) and even line-pairs at another ISO (say, 400), and then you have to combine both fields to get your final image. If the image only had highlights and shadows in it, you'd be losing half your vertical resolution; if there are some midtones, the loss will be less than that.

And since images in ISO 100 and 400 have slightly different color and noise characteristics, you have to meet at the lower-quality of them both (so, color may be a bit worse, as mentioned above), and this makes mixing both images not trivial (the processing involved to avoid horizontal artifacts does generate some IQ loss).

Still mindblowingly awesome, if you ask me. Looking great, and improving very fast.

Marsu42

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2013, 04:28:15 AM »
My question IS; Why if ML can do it, Why won't Canon? not why can't Canon?

... because:

1. Canon is an ultra-conservative company, their management seems to view the eos cameras still as an extension of the analog age.

2. From a marketing viewpoint, too many features will confuse customers. Look at the low ml adoption rate even in this enthusiast forum, so other pros (high-end) or amateurs (low-end) won't generate a roi for more features, but only add to the support burden. Canon hates putting work into their fw, they even didn't backport the rt flash capability to still current cameras (650d, 60d, 7d) or very recent pro line (5d2, 1d4).

3. I guess Canon might not know their own hardware, i.e. communication from tech so fw development probably is lacking. The unused functions on the digic that ml sometimes uses indicates that their engineers try a lot of things, but only a part is used later on.

dflt

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2013, 04:54:54 AM »
It might be that some of the Magic Lantern developers are related to Canon... somehow... :) too many great achievements in the last half year :). And their comment regarding the 1DC: if anyone touches the 1DC and other hi-end camera firmware, Canon's legal team gonna go full force againts them. They are AOK with machinations including the 5D3, but 1DC and the cinema range must not be touched. Have you thought about what kind of tech those beasts have?

It's the same trick Intel played with AMD about overclockability. Officially it wasnt supported in the beginning, but every reviewer told the public: ah, this 2GHz Intel CPU could be clocked without a hassle to 3GHz... oh and AMD is cheaper but you can't clock it higher than 10%...

Marsu42

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2013, 05:15:59 AM »
It might be that some of the Magic Lantern developers are related to Canon... somehow... :) too many great achievements in the last half year :).

Some ml devs have shown amazing (unpaid!) patience when reverse engineering the canon digic during the last years, and now it simply pays off and the pieces are not isolated anymore but falling together into new features.

And their comment regarding the 1DC: if anyone touches the 1DC and other hi-end camera firmware, Canon's legal team gonna go full force againts them. They are AOK with machinations including the 5D3, but 1DC and the cinema range must not be touched. Have you thought about what kind of tech those beasts have?

I don't think the 1dx tech in principle is vastly different from 5d3, but certainly more canon fw features, more computing power, sturdier hardware plus rgb metering. But when ml is done with the 5d3 it'd be difficult to choose between this and a 1dx :-p ...

... as for not porting ml to the 1d: Canon certainly doesn't want  the 1dc features backported to the 1dx, but otherwise I don't quite understand what Canon's problem is - but it doesn't matter anyway, ml is a community project originating in beefing up the crippled Rebels, and fortunately it's still no free support team for rich people's gear even though it's amazing what lies dormant in the latest models.

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2013, 05:58:58 AM »
<div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><g:plusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=14171\"></g:plusone></div><div style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a href=\"https://twitter.com/share\" class=\"twitter-share-button\" data-count=\"vertical\" data-url=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=14171\">Tweet</a></div>
<p><strong>From Magic Lantern<br />

</strong>The folks at Magic Lantern have no cracked the EOS 5D Mark II and <a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/892349-REG/Canon_8035b002_EOS_6D_Digital_Camera.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296\" target=\"_blank\">EOS 6D</a> and made the cameras capable of shooting in “dual ISO mode” which increases dynamic range to 14 stops. We’ve seen this <a href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/07/normal-raw-vs-dual-iso-raw-example-video/\" target=\"_blank\">previously for the EOS 5D Mark III</a>.</p>
<p><strong><a href=\"http://blog.planet5d.com/2013/08/magic-lantern-cracks-dual-iso-on-5d2-and-6d-for-14-stops-of-dynamic-range/\" target=\"_blank\">Read more at Planet5D</a></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>

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Re: Dual ISO Makes its Way to the EOS 5D Mark II & EOS 6D
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2013, 05:58:58 AM »