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Author Topic: More Medium Format Talk  (Read 11097 times)

Ellen Schmidtee

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2013, 05:43:55 PM »
I think there are two parameters here - mount diameter and flange distance. I guess both would be larger, making an EF to EF-medium-format problematic.
Unless EF lenses have a image circle large enough to cover properly a larger sensor, such kinf of adapter would be totally useless.

I think Nikon knows why it allows mounting DX lenses on FX bodies.

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2013, 05:43:55 PM »

Normalnorm

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2013, 06:03:38 PM »
What is the significance of calling it a larger EF mount? Does that imply electronic compatibility...as-in you can mount one of these lenses to an EOS body with an adapter and maintain full functionality?

It would be neat to see that, but I agree with most of the sentiment in this thread. Going to be crazy expensive.

My opinion for the mention of the larger mount is the need to add credibility to this noise so the life of the rumor is continued.
There is no real business or technical argument that justifies the development or acquisition of MF capability.
As to the comment of introducing a show stopper....that is a "quote" from unattributed sources that, if true, could mean anything from a magical Foveon sensor to a new logo in the fevered imagination of a sled person.

Sorry, but this seems to be the weakest rumor with the weakest "facts" to support it.

RGomezPhotos

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2013, 01:24:55 AM »
For Canon to grow their camera division, they either has to buy an MF maker, build an MF camera or have a new generation sensor that will keep sales going for another 5 - 7 years on the top-end.  Each one of my theories has it's pros and cons.  Different levels of possibilities.  Camera sales are flat, if not dropping all over the place.  They have to figure out a way to grow.

Really, DSLRs at every level are so good.  I still think that APS-C sensors will eventually be replaced by FF.  You can get a NEW FF camera for $1600.  That was UNHEARD of just three years ago.  I think the 70D was the beginning of this revolution and it's bigger brothers are going to replace the typical FF sensor.  Sensor may be the same size.  But the tech will be a whole new generation.

I have two reasons why I think Canon's next big MP camera is going to be something super-incredible:

* Filter Down Technology.  The tech in the big MP camera will be so amazing, it's technology will eventually filter down to the lower-end cameras over time.  Like what happened with the 1DX.  While the 1DX is pretty darn amazing, it's sensor isn't.  It's all the other tech in that camera that make it so amazing.  But it won't stay the leader for very long.  It's an evolution camera.

* Zeiss 55mm Lens.  Have you seen this lens?  It's freakin' crazy the resolution this thing has.  The only camera that will even remotely takes advantage of it is the Nikon D800.  But that one camera is nowhere near enough to warrant the research, design and production of this lens.  You gotta know Canon filled them in on something.  The new Zeiss lens is a WHOLE OTHER LEVEL to any other FF lens out there.  From what I've seen, images from it are MF quality.  Damn impressive.  As big as the 55mm lens is, you gotta know a 90mm or 130mm lens is going to be monstrous in it's size.  Beefier EF mount you say?

The beefier EF mount for use in Cine Lenses?  Possibly if the new cam is going to be a kick-ass video machine as well.  Those Cine lenses are HUGE.  When I was chatting with a Canon rep at a local camera store, we put a Cine Lens on a 1DX.  Yes, the image was beautiful.  But the lens size was totally impractical for the camera to use with stills.

I think 2014 is going to be a very exciting year for Canon.  I can't wait!
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Inst

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2013, 02:15:23 AM »
Hey, I'm the guy trucking around a RB67 to do (bad) street photography; so no, an MF as a walkaround camera is theoretically doable, albeit inconvenient.

Also, look up this camera and similar systems.

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Fujica_G690

If the issue is the MF portability, I think there's no reason t assume it would be impossible for Canon to produce an EVF MF rangefinder-style camera. Imagine the image quality on the unit!

gbchriste

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2013, 04:11:51 PM »

Really, DSLRs at every level are so good.  I still think that APS-C sensors will eventually be replaced by FF.  You can get a NEW FF camera for $1600.  That was UNHEARD of just three years ago.  I think the 70D was the beginning of this revolution and it's bigger brothers are going to replace the typical FF sensor.  Sensor may be the same size.  But the tech will be a whole new generation.


I don't agree.  I believe there will always be a need/market for a crop sensor to sell to the masses.  Every time I find myself hanging around the DSLR displays at places like Best Buy, et al, I see the same thing - an uneducated consumer looking for long reach.  So they buy a fairly expensive camera and mate that up with a really cheap and crappy 300mm kit-level zoom.  And what are they after?  Getting shots of little Johnny on Little League field, or little Suzy on stage in her tutu, etc.  For the present, they don't know that the noise on the consumer-level sensor they just bought and coupled up to a variable f4/5.6 lens is going to totally undercut their goal of taking those shots under less-than-optimal lighting conditions.  But all they are thinking about is the reach of the lens.  So the sales guy pulls out a crop sensor body, puts that 300mm zoom on it, gives it to the customer, who then marvels that they can look through the view finder and read the numbers on the wrist watch of someone standing on the opposite side of the store.  Sale made...KaChing!!!

moreorless

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2013, 06:02:32 AM »
"Maybe Canons intention is to produce an 'affordable' MF system for those that really do need that amount of pixel power. "

That is a funny statement. Prices for any medium format lenses or bodies will be obsene. Just look at what happens when they update a lens like the EF 24mm f2.8 IS, prices double at the very least.

Not a good example there, the 24mm 2.8 is Canon replacing one of its own(25 year old) products with a new one, compare it to say a Leica M mount 24mm 2.8 lens and the price is obviously a lot lower.

A digital MF camera is never going to be "cheap" but just look at MF prices today, a new IQ 180 + camera will set you back what $35K? I very much doubt that the production costs make up much of that price, rather Phase One have choosen a business model that targets limated high end sales to offset R&D.

The main argument against it seems to be Canon devolping a high resolution FF sensor, if they were considering MF it would seem to make more sense to leave the high resolution market to it.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 06:04:17 AM by moreorless »

grahamsz

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2013, 09:45:11 AM »
A digital MF camera is never going to be "cheap" but just look at MF prices today, a new IQ 180 + camera will set you back what $35K? I very much doubt that the production costs make up much of that price, rather Phase One have choosen a business model that targets limated high end sales to offset R&D.

The main argument against it seems to be Canon devolping a high resolution FF sensor, if they were considering MF it would seem to make more sense to leave the high resolution market to it.

Canon may have the expertise in image processing. It seems more likely to me that they might partner with an existing MF company to provide large sensors and the digic 6 to them. That would be a revenue stream for them that wouldn't cannibalize any of their existing market. It also wouldn't commit them to building a new line of of LargeEF lenses to run on it, which would likely have a very long ROI.

I already worry that Canon's lineup is such a mess it'll be unsustainable without some sizeable cutbacks. They've currently got 3 lines of full frame EOS, 3 lines of crop sensor EOS, Mirrorless stuff in the works, Cinema EOS and probably some others. Adding another imaging sensor and then trying to support a whole new line of lenses seems like madness.

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2013, 09:45:11 AM »

Ellen Schmidtee

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2013, 01:23:06 AM »
I already worry that Canon's lineup is such a mess it'll be unsustainable without some sizeable cutbacks. They've currently got 3 lines of full frame EOS, 3 lines of crop sensor EOS, Mirrorless stuff in the works, Cinema EOS and probably some others. Adding another imaging sensor and then trying to support a whole new line of lenses seems like madness.

Aren't there 4 lines of crop sensor EOS? and three lines of compacts?

I wonder whether the cinema line sells that much better than MF.

Kelt0901

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2013, 04:07:45 AM »
Hey, I'm the guy trucking around a RB67 to do (bad) street photography; so no, an MF as a walkaround camera is theoretically doable, albeit inconvenient.

Also, look up this camera and similar systems.

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Fujica_G690

If the issue is the MF portability, I think there's no reason t assume it would be impossible for Canon to produce an EVF MF rangefinder-style camera. Imagine the image quality on the unit!

I love my MF Mamiya gear, it's a pity about the low technology digital backs available.   I have a ZD back and is 22 Mpxls @ 36X48mms, great image quality, but very old technology, Canon could do it much better.   Canon should adapt to the Mamiya system, it's the most popular system in MF, make compatible CMOS backs to start with and then the bodies and lenses.
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moreorless

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2013, 05:00:18 AM »
A digital MF camera is never going to be "cheap" but just look at MF prices today, a new IQ 180 + camera will set you back what $35K? I very much doubt that the production costs make up much of that price, rather Phase One have choosen a business model that targets limated high end sales to offset R&D.

The main argument against it seems to be Canon devolping a high resolution FF sensor, if they were considering MF it would seem to make more sense to leave the high resolution market to it.

Canon may have the expertise in image processing. It seems more likely to me that they might partner with an existing MF company to provide large sensors and the digic 6 to them. That would be a revenue stream for them that wouldn't cannibalize any of their existing market. It also wouldn't commit them to building a new line of of LargeEF lenses to run on it, which would likely have a very long ROI.

Just because it wouldn't have a Canon brand on it doesn't mean it wouldn't be in competision with them. I very much doubt they'd take that route anyway as a lot of the reason for investing in MF would IMHO be the glamour it would bring to the brand, the idea that Canon plays second fiddle to nobody when it comes to the best in photography.

Quote
I already worry that Canon's lineup is such a mess it'll be unsustainable without some sizeable cutbacks. They've currently got 3 lines of full frame EOS, 3 lines of crop sensor EOS, Mirrorless stuff in the works, Cinema EOS and probably some others. Adding another imaging sensor and then trying to support a whole new line of lenses seems like madness.

I don't see a "mess" so much as products that are targeted at specific markets. The larger and more profitable Canon become the more they obviously have to invest in R&D(including buying on existing companies) as well so its not an "either or" situation.

My guess would be if Canon take someone over it'll be Mamiya, they have the knowhow with medium format but the brand itself isn't as valuable as something like Hassleblad so rebranding it Canon would be less of a loss.

grahamsz

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2013, 11:39:19 AM »
I don't see a "mess" so much as products that are targeted at specific markets. The larger and more profitable Canon become the more they obviously have to invest in R&D(including buying on existing companies) as well so its not an "either or" situation.

My guess would be if Canon take someone over it'll be Mamiya, they have the knowhow with medium format but the brand itself isn't as valuable as something like Hassleblad so rebranding it Canon would be less of a loss.

Well maybe "mess" is the wrong word, but I'd love to see how sales stack up across all the different product lines. I always thought the 60D line was an odd one, if price is a concern then most people seem to go for the rebel (especially since the rebel line gets refreshed more frequently) and if price isn't a concern then the 7D makes more sense.

I agree with you on Mamiya, however my interpretation of the original rumor suggested that the lenses would be in some way compatible with EF. Obviously they can't be mechanically compatible so that means they'd have to be electronically compatible. Imagine the outcry from Mamiya users if Canon changed their lenses to now use the EF connections and protocol instead of whatever they use now.

I suspect that if they dipped their toe in by making sensors for someone else then they could reserve the option to buy that other party outright later.

Bennymiata

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2013, 01:19:12 AM »
Perhaps Canon see the success of the Pentax 645D camera as something to emulate.
Canon always need to move forward and get people to spend ever larger amounts of money with them, so after FF, where else is there to go except to MF?

If they can do it for a reasonable price, I think there is a definite market for MF cameras and lenses.
Imagine a slightly larger 1Dx that has a 60meg MF sensor for around $10K.
If it could perform like a 1Dx but with MF goodness thrown in, I reckon a lot of pros and well-off amateurs would buy into the system, much as many amateurs, like my father, had Hasselblads back in the film days.

It would also be a halo product.
Even it didn't quite pay for itself, it would rub off on the rest of Canon's line up.

tnargs

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2013, 03:44:18 AM »
Canon always need to move forward and get people to spend ever larger amounts of money with them, so after FF, where else is there to go except to MF?

So, you're saying there is a huge block of Canon users who have upgraded their way to 1DX and want more camera?

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2013, 03:44:18 AM »

LewisShermer

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2013, 04:33:28 AM »
Canon always need to move forward and get people to spend ever larger amounts of money with them, so after FF, where else is there to go except to MF?

So, you're saying there is a huge block of Canon users who have upgraded their way to 1DX and want more camera?

Yep.

MF isn't about wondering the streets taking snaps of pigeons or taking photo's of your kids pricking about in the garden, it's a serious camera for serious people. It's a commercial camera for commercial projects, product, architecture & fashion. Imagine cropping an image and it still being big enough to print on a billboard or the side of a building. That's it's practical use. The photographers who do this aren't going out to do weddings at £100 a pop.

Don't get disgruntled because this camera isn't aimed at you. It's great that they're having a go at this market and I can't wait to own one :)
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dickgrafixstop

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2013, 09:44:38 AM »
You can get a Pentax 645D with lens for about $10K, a Hasselblad starts at about $15K, the Leica at $30K.
None of the above systems are huge sellers, and the whole digital MF market is probably less dollar volume
than Canon will make with the 5DIII.  Why bother?

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Re: More Medium Format Talk
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2013, 09:44:38 AM »