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Author Topic: 70D and Dxomark....  (Read 68058 times)

Aglet

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Re: Black-Cap event
« Reply #255 on: August 30, 2013, 11:09:23 PM »
70D in stock at my local store.
Goin' in for some lens cap shots.

Case in point - this is how Aglet evaluates a new camera: 'pictures' with the lens cap on.  He'll then boost the black images 4-5 stops, and tell us all how crappy the 'pictures' are, and how Canon still hasn't made their sensors cameras any better.

Yawn.

raw files are pushed 4 stops

Do you look for bio-luminescent markers with the room lights on?

(BTW, are you a real scientist?...  cuz you sure spend a LOT more time on this forum during the work day than I'd like to see any employee of mine doing)

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Re: Black-Cap event
« Reply #255 on: August 30, 2013, 11:09:23 PM »

Aglet

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #256 on: August 30, 2013, 11:12:31 PM »
New thread with 70D lens cap tests and text interpretation.  sorry no time for visuals tonite.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=16713.0


Happy long weekend everybody.
Go shoot something!   w i t h   a   C A M E R A.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #257 on: August 30, 2013, 11:16:40 PM »
And if Canon has the right to keep sending out user surveys trying to gauge how trapped users feel by their Canon lens collections and to keep judging how far they can get away with not updating their sensors fabs then Ankorwatt can be free to keep griping about it. Why is Canon some holy thing for playing that game and Ankor the devil?
Because Canon is trying to assess the wants and needs of the customer base in an effort to produce more marketable products (note that 'more marketable' doesn't necessarily mean 'better'), whereas Mikael/ankorwatt is just an Internet troll.
Well the way they were asking questions it was pretty clear they were trying to judge how trapped and locked into the Canon system their base was, they basically more or less even out right asked that, and more than once. That is a bit different than simply assessing the needs and wants of the customers. But more seeing how much leeway they had to get away with in some cases not meeting their needs and wants.

I think you may have misinterpreted my statement. I said Canon wants to assess customers' needs and wants. I didn't say their goal is to meet them.  Seriously, if Canon thought they could slap their logo on Kobe steer manure and profit from it, they would - that's their mandate.  That's what marketing is all about - lipstick on pigs and logos on cow poop, as long as it sells.  Marketing...unfortunately like tax collectors and lawyers, a necessary evil in today's society. Not that I'm cynical about that...
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dtaylor

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #258 on: August 30, 2013, 11:21:29 PM »
I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what that 3 stop of extra DR can mean (5D3 on top, D800 on the bottom):

I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 5x macro lens as part of the system can mean (5DII + MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro on top, no competiton on the bottom):





I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 12 fps-capable body and handholdable 600mm f/4 lens as part of the system can mean (1D X + EF 600mm f/4L IS II on top, no competiton on the bottom):



Wait...you mean we can use these cameras for something other then shooting walls at -5EV?  8)

Great shots btw.

dtaylor

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #259 on: August 30, 2013, 11:25:54 PM »
I don't really get why canon users need to defend their far inferior sensor.....Envy?

I don't really get why Sony/Nikon users need to come to a Canon forum and blabber on and on and on about how superior their sensors are when the truth is they couldn't pick out 30" prints in a double blind test if their lives depended on it.

Then again, I don't shoot walls at -5 EV. And when I do lift shadows, I use a little something called noise reduction. I know, I'm weird that way, wanting to shoot other subjects at correct exposures...

zlatko

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #260 on: August 30, 2013, 11:30:26 PM »
  Thank goodness they are very skilled photographers and know what they're doing because their cameras are not giving them the slightest advantage vs. Canon.   Canon "banding getting worse" ... what banding?  Canon "falling behind in color sensitivity"? ... I wish Nikon color were as good.


You seriously did notice the banding got worse going for 1Ds3 to 5D2? Or 40D to 50D? And then better again from 5D2 to 6D (although maybe still a trace behind the old 1Ds3)?

You actually think that many Nikons have not had a lot less banding than stuff like 50D,5D2,5D3,1D4,etc.?

Maybe you don't ever shoot to where it matters, but that is something else.

You wish Nikon color sensitivity were as good? It's better.
As for what color is better overall, not just talking color sensitivity, that is a very complex topic with no easy answers. Overall it seems Nikon has filters that allow for more accurate color overall on average although Canon make make certain skin types easier to pull off nicely. It's a very twisted subejct and it varies model to model and in many cases there is probably no universal answer comparing any given body to any given other it might depend upon the very exactingly specific question you ask. But in terms of color sensitivity and metamerism overall on average Nikon has often been a full stop ahead recently.

1Ds3 to 5D2 -- that's going from the a top of the line model to a model costing half as much.  You're really stretching here.

40D was same generation as the 1Ds3 and also had a lot less banding than the more costly 5D2 which was of the really bad banding generation along with the 50D

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40D to 50D -- that was 2008; we are now two models post 50D.  You're really stretching to prove this alleged decline.

How it is stretching anything. you said there was never any decline, there was. They spent a few generations getting worse before now climbing finally back to where they had been over half a decade ago.

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5D2 to 6D -- the 6D is significantly better in image quality.  There is no banding, let alone "worse" banding.

That is what I said, with the 6D they finally got the cameras back almost to where they had been in the 1Ds3 era. 

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I used two 5D2's for a total of nearly 400K exposures.  No banding problem.  I must be shooting "where it never matters", or perhaps I don't massively underexpose.

How many times does it need to be said that it's not about underexposure!

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I didn't say Nikon has less banding.  I said banding is not an issue with current Canon models.  And there you go again with the 50D. 

You said you never saw any changes and that they had never risen and declined and risen again, something a heck of a lot different than there is no banding with current models. And the latter isn't even quite true since while the 6D and 1DX do pretty well with it they are still a touch worse than old 1Ds3 in that regard and somewhat worse than most of the Exmor cameras at any price. And the 5D3 is very much a current model as is the 7D and they have a goodly amount of banding at low ISO (although the latest processing software is fairly good at hiding it with the 5D3, but when you are really pushing DR it still shows with the 5D3, in fact if it didn't, then how can people say the 6D clearly does better?).

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As for Nikon color being "better" ... I've seen too many examples to the contrary.

Overall as a whole there sensors have been more color accurate overall at the RAW level. As I said it's a very complex thing and it also depends a ton upon what software and profile you use, tremendously so and also what you care about, if you care about a certain skin type under certain lighting type by far the most than Canon colors may overall seem better to you, if you care about some other aspect than very well maybe not since Nikon has tended to distinguish more fine shades overall and store them as RAW a bit more accurately as a whole, although no for every portion of the visible spectrum. There is no simple answer at all when it comes to color and there are so many different aspects to it.

I can't speak about every camera Canon has made, but I've had no banding problem with the 5D3, 6D, 5D2, 7D or 60D.  The "goodly amount of banding" you claim with the 5D3 just doesn't exist in my 5D3.  I don't know what people are doing with these cameras to have a banding problem.

"Really pushing DR" ... what does that mean? ... Is this all about being able to radically push the sliders in Lightroom?

duydaniel

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #261 on: August 30, 2013, 11:40:07 PM »
where is the banding?
5D3
ISO 4000
extreme cropped

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #261 on: August 30, 2013, 11:40:07 PM »

zlatko

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Re: Black-Cap event
« Reply #262 on: August 30, 2013, 11:43:30 PM »
70D in stock at my local store.
Goin' in for some lens cap shots.

Case in point - this is how Aglet evaluates a new camera: 'pictures' with the lens cap on.  He'll then boost the black images 4-5 stops, and tell us all how crappy the 'pictures' are, and how Canon still hasn't made their sensors cameras any better.

Yawn.

raw files are pushed 4 stops

Do you look for bio-luminescent markers with the room lights on?

(BTW, are you a real scientist?...  cuz you sure spend a LOT more time on this forum during the work day than I'd like to see any employee of mine doing)

Lens cap shots?  Pushed 4 stops??  I've never heard of a worse way to evaluate a camera.  That's not even photography.  It shows something, but has no practical relevance.

dtaylor

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #263 on: August 30, 2013, 11:45:25 PM »
Perhaps you have lower standards or you just dont care,

Or perhaps you just don't know how to expose, process, and print a 7D RAW file.

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Explain to me though, do you believe that in some cases with the right subject, under some circumstances, the output from any dslr might be indinstiguisable from another, or do you maintain that this is the case generally?

It's the case pretty much all of the time with the exception of underexposing walls, pushing +5 EV, and leaving default NR or turning NR off completely.

One thing I have to give to Ken Rockwell is his evaluation of the levels of photography, especially the lowest level. Tell me he doesn't describe to a T the DR trolls who keep coming here:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm

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do create a separate thread and post your thesis about how dslrs have the same output regardless brand or format, im sure it 'll be highly entertaining.

The differences in output are an order of magnitude less significant then the next least significant variable. Honestly I've put more time and thought into what paper I want to print on then whether I should shoot Canon or Nikon, because the paper choice matters more.

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Obviously you can see a massive difference if you want to salvage shoots where flash or strobes didnt fire; basically those sony sensors are isoless, you could push an underexposed iso100 all the way to 3200 and there isnt much difference from a native 3200, plus the tonality will be actually greater.

Sure you can. You can also leave the lens cap on and get perfect images, or so a Nikon fan told me.
Yep sure you can and hyperboles wont help your case.

I was making fun of your hyperbole.

A) Claiming tonality would be better in an ISO 100 shot pushed 5 EV then in a native ISO 3200 shot only illustrates your ignorance about how tonality is encoded. Please review the technical literature on why we expose to the right.

B) I would actually agree that Sony sensors are better at +5 EV then Canon sensors. And if I regularly blew my exposures by -5 EV, or regularly shot with a broken flash, I might consider that a large advantage. Since this has happened...um...never...it doesn't really matter, does it?

dtaylor

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #264 on: August 30, 2013, 11:54:49 PM »
Canon fanboys are so much fun... I bet they'd be defending their phone as a superior way of taking images if they had spent $4K on the system  8)

So sad...

Nikon fanboys are so much fun. I bet they would raid a CIA forum and talk about how spy satellites have terrible DR if they could find one.

So sad...

neuroanatomist

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Re: Black-Cap event
« Reply #265 on: August 30, 2013, 11:57:58 PM »
70D in stock at my local store.
Goin' in for some lens cap shots.
Case in point - this is how Aglet evaluates a new camera: 'pictures' with the lens cap on.  He'll then boost the black images 4-5 stops, and tell us all how crappy the 'pictures' are, and how Canon still hasn't made their sensors cameras any better.

Yawn.

raw files are pushed 4 stops

Do you look for bio-luminescent markers with the room lights on?

(BTW, are you a real scientist?...  cuz you sure spend a LOT more time on this forum during the work day than I'd like to see any employee of mine doing)

Only 4 stops? Are you sure that's enough?  Or is that just the limit of the exposure slider?

Yes, we have the room lights on - hard to do experiments in the dark (except testing sensors, that's obviously better in the dark).  FWIW, the room lights are spectrally filtered to eliminate light in the emission wavelengths of the markers.  Hey, that gives me an idea - if shooting with the lens cap on is a good way to test sensors, maybe shooting in bizarre, oligochromatic light would be a good way to test auto WB?

Well, the PhD in neuroscience certainly suggests I'm a 'real' scientist.  So do the publications listed on my CV.  As for time, science often isn't a 9-5 job, which is great for me because I'd really dislike something so mundane.  But thanks for the snide remark.  Looking forward to more lens cap shots....but be careful - if you take too many, you may find yourself forgetting to take the cap off for an actual picture, and that would be a great loss.
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Chosenbydestiny

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #266 on: August 31, 2013, 12:00:12 AM »
Wow, egofest 2013. Let the pixel peepers babble, and photographers continue to win awards and make money without anyone telling them it was because of DR. =P Some of you guys shouldn't be photographers, you should just apply for the engineering department for any of the competing brands.
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dtaylor

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #267 on: August 31, 2013, 12:06:03 AM »
"Really pushing DR" ... what does that mean? ... Is this all about being able to radically push the sliders in Lightroom?

Yes. That's all this discussion is about. Nikon...er, Sony...sensor fanboys taking terribly underexposed photos, turning off NR, shoving the exposure slider to +5EV, and then crying about noise and banding.

Never mind that people don't underexpose like that...
Never mind the complete loss of subtle tonality when you push that hard...
Never mind that the differences are much smaller when you actually use NR...
Never mind that the differences are smaller still when you view at normal sizes...

All that matters in the entire world of photography is shooting a wall at -5EV. I don't know how anyone ever made a photograph before Sony's revolutionary sensors.

Side note: I bet cult members don't push as hard as the DRboys in this forum.

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #267 on: August 31, 2013, 12:06:03 AM »

Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #268 on: August 31, 2013, 12:20:53 AM »
where is the banding?

Here, for example:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6sEEih63_X7ejAyTmktUXZDMlE/edit?usp=sharing

And here is the "unprocessed RAW" (I love that term  :) ):

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6sEEih63_X7dFFnN1pDWGFfVms/edit?usp=sharing

Nothing drastic done. Open them with a color managed viewer.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #269 on: August 31, 2013, 12:21:52 AM »
where is the banding?
5D3
ISO 4000
extreme cropped

It is at LOW ISO in the very darkest tones where it has more banding than Exmor not at high ISO. At very high ISO it does even a trace better than D800.

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #269 on: August 31, 2013, 12:21:52 AM »