August 02, 2014, 01:17:14 AM

Author Topic: 70D and Dxomark....  (Read 59574 times)

unfocused

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1930
    • View Profile
    • Unfocused: A photo website
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2013, 11:18:06 PM »
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this and maybe I'm missing something here, but when I compare the D7100 to the 70D and 7D on the graphs there doesn't seem to be all that much difference.

I admit I'm not a dynamic range freak, and I'm more interested in ISO performance, but it doesn't seem like there is any real world difference between the Nikon and Canon sensors.

My conclusion: The 70D sensor offers an almost imperceptible improvement over the 7D and the D7100 might be an equally imperceptible improvement over both the Canon's but not enough to make buying a camera based on the sensor alone worthwhile. 

For all the talk about how antiquated Canon's sensor tech is, I'm not seeing it in these results. Even their summary (if I read it correctly) says the Canon and Nikon sensors are only about a fifth of a stop different in ISO performance. One-fifth of a stop?

Okay...I'm waiting for the flaming to start.

Not much for luminance SNR. It's right there with the best of the best D7100. Whatever differences there are you'd never spot.

Tons for DR though and now it's also at high ISO where it is behind for that not just low ISO. The D7100 utterly whomps it for dynamic range. Also considerably for color sensitivity (very oddly though, despite that, the metamerism index is only 2 #s apart this time for daylight and the Canon is actually one number ahead for indoor lighting in terms of color discrimination, I guess somehow it manages to have about the same color discrimination and yet still a lot more chroma noise, in the past when the canon had worse chroma noise it also had noticeably worse color discrimination. Looks to have the same chroma noise as the old 7D but better color discrimination indoors by four points (whatever exactly four points means, that's a tricky element).)

So the 70D seems to be more or state of the art for luminance SNR, reasonably solid for passes for solid these days for daylight color discrimination (although weaker than old stuff), quite strong for tungsten/artificial lighting color discrimination, wayyyyy behind state of the art for low ISO dynamic range, solidly behind the state of the art for high ISO dynamic range, solidly behind state of the art for chroma SNR.

Compared to the 7D alone it appears to improve tungsten lighting color discrimination a fair bit, improves luminance SNR somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3rds of a stop, slightly improves DR at very high ISO (although oddly 1/2 stop worse at ISO200, otherwise appears to be within margin of error for DR), has about the same chroma SNR. It probably has a lot less banding than the 7D though for both low ISO deep shadows and vertical gain banding in the lighter shades. But the random noise at low ISO shadows are still very circa 2007 quality.

Thanks. Not sure I understand all this, but I appreciate the time you spent and your summation seems very reasonable.

I'm not one of those who needs to convince the world that Canon is perfect and frankly, I'm getting a little tired of the argument that better lenses (which frankly I doubt) and better ergonomics (which is pretty individualized) should trump everything else.

I'm always looking forward to the next generation of improvements and recognize that someone must always be slightly ahead. The manufacturers tend to leap frog one another, so I know that if Nikon is leading in one area now, Canon will overtake them and then they will overtake Canon and so on and so forth.

The truth is, this idea that Canon is greatest in the world is all pretty foreign to me. I bought my first Canon in the 1970s while working on a small newspaper. In those days, Canon was considered a distant second by virtually every professional photographer. It was Nikon or nothing and if you shot Canon you were looked down upon.

It didn't really bother me. I always identified with underdogs and the lower price of Canon enabled me to pick up an extra lens for the cost of what I would have spent buying the same kit from Nikon. When I finally sold the F1 and converted to digital I was stunned to learn that Canon was now considered better than Nikon by some.

Honestly, I don't get how fiercely some people on both sides of the equation hold to these beliefs. Frankly, the differences are so slight these days, I wonder why anyone cares.
pictures sharp. life not so much. www.unfocusedmg.com

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2013, 11:18:06 PM »

Pi

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
    • Math and Photography
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2013, 11:24:57 PM »



It is the first time I see pattern noise in the form of diagonal lines.  :)

Cool shot!

David Hull

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2013, 11:32:50 PM »
Cognitive dissonance is very high with Canon customers who just shelled out a couple of Gs on their imaging equipment. They will try to justify by saying that "I always expose properly, so who cares about pulling shadows", "I shoot JPG anyway", "I like how Canon feels in my hands", or "Canon sells way more cameras".

Cognitive dissonance is very high with Nikon customers who just shelled out (more than) a couple of Gs on their imaging equipment. They will try to justify by saying that, "I don't really focus on anything in the left side of the field," and, "The sharpness of my images isn't affected by the CA endemic to my lenses, that can be fixed in post," and, "I like lots of buttons," and, "A smaller, less successful, non market-leading company like Nikon treats me better (and no, I don't mind waiting almost a month for a service when needed)."
You forgot to mention those "artsy" oil spots on the sensor and how nice they look in the images.  Canon can't even come close to that.

zlatko

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
    • View Profile
    • http://www.zlatkobatistich.com
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2013, 12:00:25 AM »
Not exactly.  I push and pull exposures as much as I ever need to with Canon cameras and never have a problem with shadows or anything else relating to sensor. 

If by that you mean - shadow noise is there but I do not find it to be a problem, I can believe you. But if you are trying to say that you do not know what just about everybody else is talking about - I am skeptical.

I do not find it to be a problem — ever.  The files have plenty of tolerance for exposure error.  I don't believe "everybody" is talking about shadow noise. 

I know these topics get pushed on DPReview, where anonymous know-it-alls try to convince everyone that Canon cameras suck.  It is as if people seek out some trivial imperfection and then harp about it as if it were the utmost measure of a camera's performance.  It's like saying Kodak or Fuji really need to reduce the graininess of their 8x10" sheet film because that's such a problem that everyone is talking about it.

I've talked about all sorts of technical topics with other professional Canon users, and the topic of shadow noise never comes up. 

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 13626
    • View Profile
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2013, 12:02:49 AM »
It is the first time I see pattern noise in the form of diagonal lines.  :)

Cool shot!

LOL.  Thanks!
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

David Hull

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2013, 12:26:15 AM »
I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what that 3 stop of extra DR can mean (5D3 on top, D800 on the bottom):



All this really proves that even two of the best cameras currently made are each capable of producing suboptimal images when used incorrectly.   
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 01:02:45 AM by David Hull »

Pi

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
    • Math and Photography
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2013, 12:44:13 AM »
I do not find it to be a problem — ever. 

Fair enough. I do not find to be a problem most of the time. But when I do, I wish it was not a problem  :), and that happens often enough to be a problem.

Quote
I know these topics get pushed on DPReview, where anonymous know-it-alls try to convince everyone that Canon cameras suck. 

Some of those "anonymous know-it-alls" are John Sheehy, Bob (bobn2) and Joe James (Great Bustard); Joe posted here a few weeks ago. They also happen to be some of the most knowledgeable people there, with a few others who share their opinion but are less active.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2013, 12:44:13 AM »

Woody

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
    • View Profile
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2013, 01:12:46 AM »
I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 5x macro lens as part of the system can mean (5DII + MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro on top, no competiton on the bottom):

I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 12 fps-capable body and handholdable 600mm f/4 lens as part of the system can mean (1D X + EF 600mm f/4L IS II on top, no competiton on the bottom):

These are beautiful images. I really like them a lot. :)

Woody

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
    • View Profile
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2013, 01:19:17 AM »
Some of those "anonymous know-it-alls" are John Sheehy, Bob (bobn2) and Joe James (Great Bustard); Joe posted here a few weeks ago. They also happen to be some of the most knowledgeable people there, with a few others who share their opinion but are less active.

There's no denying that John Sheehy and Joe James are knowledgeable. I don't really trust Bob (bobn2) because his views are highly prejudiced.

Anyway, the truth is that the so-called 'deficiencies' in Canon sensors are not as severe for real photographers as what we are led to believe. They are there... but just not that bad.

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3319
    • View Profile
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2013, 02:24:37 AM »
MPE

Yeah Canon does have some good ones like MPE, 70-300L and 17 TSE of which nothing equivalent exists elsewhere and others like the 24mm TSE II which Nikon doesn't really truly have a solid clone of and the 24-70 II which probably could resolve the edges of a D800 shot unlike the 24-70 Nikon.


LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3319
    • View Profile
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2013, 02:43:27 AM »
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this and maybe I'm missing something here, but when I compare the D7100 to the 70D and 7D on the graphs there doesn't seem to be all that much difference.

I admit I'm not a dynamic range freak, and I'm more interested in ISO performance, but it doesn't seem like there is any real world difference between the Nikon and Canon sensors.

My conclusion: The 70D sensor offers an almost imperceptible improvement over the 7D and the D7100 might be an equally imperceptible improvement over both the Canon's but not enough to make buying a camera based on the sensor alone worthwhile. 

For all the talk about how antiquated Canon's sensor tech is, I'm not seeing it in these results. Even their summary (if I read it correctly) says the Canon and Nikon sensors are only about a fifth of a stop different in ISO performance. One-fifth of a stop?

Okay...I'm waiting for the flaming to start.

Not much for luminance SNR. It's right there with the best of the best D7100. Whatever differences there are you'd never spot.

Tons for DR though and now it's also at high ISO where it is behind for that not just low ISO. The D7100 utterly whomps it for dynamic range. Also considerably for color sensitivity (very oddly though, despite that, the metamerism index is only 2 #s apart this time for daylight and the Canon is actually one number ahead for indoor lighting in terms of color discrimination, I guess somehow it manages to have about the same color discrimination and yet still a lot more chroma noise, in the past when the canon had worse chroma noise it also had noticeably worse color discrimination. Looks to have the same chroma noise as the old 7D but better color discrimination indoors by four points (whatever exactly four points means, that's a tricky element).)

So the 70D seems to be more or state of the art for luminance SNR, reasonably solid for passes for solid these days for daylight color discrimination (although weaker than old stuff), quite strong for tungsten/artificial lighting color discrimination, wayyyyy behind state of the art for low ISO dynamic range, solidly behind the state of the art for high ISO dynamic range, solidly behind state of the art for chroma SNR.

Compared to the 7D alone it appears to improve tungsten lighting color discrimination a fair bit, improves luminance SNR somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3rds of a stop, slightly improves DR at very high ISO (although oddly 1/2 stop worse at ISO200, otherwise appears to be within margin of error for DR), has about the same chroma SNR. It probably has a lot less banding than the 7D though for both low ISO deep shadows and vertical gain banding in the lighter shades. But the random noise at low ISO shadows are still very circa 2007 quality.

Thanks. Not sure I understand all this, but I appreciate the time you spent and your summation seems very reasonable.

I'm not one of those who needs to convince the world that Canon is perfect and frankly, I'm getting a little tired of the argument that better lenses (which frankly I doubt) and better ergonomics (which is pretty individualized) should trump everything else.

I'm always looking forward to the next generation of improvements and recognize that someone must always be slightly ahead. The manufacturers tend to leap frog one another, so I know that if Nikon is leading in one area now, Canon will overtake them and then they will overtake Canon and so on and so forth.

The truth is, this idea that Canon is greatest in the world is all pretty foreign to me. I bought my first Canon in the 1970s while working on a small newspaper. In those days, Canon was considered a distant second by virtually every professional photographer. It was Nikon or nothing and if you shot Canon you were looked down upon.

It didn't really bother me. I always identified with underdogs and the lower price of Canon enabled me to pick up an extra lens for the cost of what I would have spent buying the same kit from Nikon. When I finally sold the F1 and converted to digital I was stunned to learn that Canon was now considered better than Nikon by some.

Honestly, I don't get how fiercely some people on both sides of the equation hold to these beliefs. Frankly, the differences are so slight these days, I wonder why anyone cares.

Yeah Canon used to make it a lot easier to get into big time lenses. You could get a 300 2.8 from Canon for like $3400 when it was more like $5500 or something from Nikon, pretty darn rough and bit much. That was a big advantage for Canon. Recently the pricing has sort of swapped though (not that the high priced recent glass from Canon hasn't been mostly top notch though).

yeah UI is a personal thing. I know it actually used to be looked down upon to admit you liked the Canon-way better (I always did), although it seems these days that probably more people do admit to preferring current Canon UI to Nikon UI. Of course still plenty prefer the Nikon UI.

(Yeah way back in film days, in FD film days, I've heard that Nikon was considered the serious brand, the pro brand and Canon the serious consumer brand. The EF mount helped flip that around. Their big supertele, their IS lenses. And then the better Canon DSLR sensors in the early days. Every side line was filled with white lenses. Every newspaper, every PJ school seemed to recommend Canon as the way to go. It was all Canon, Canon, Canon. You'd run into a Getty photographer shooting Nikon and he'd spot even just your little 20D and act all jealous and talk about how he was just about done with Nikon and their stinking sensors. And then the 1D3 AF disaster hit and people realized that any sub-1 series Canon really could not AF all that well and the superior sensors were starting to no longer be enough, Canon kept top AF only for 1 series and then they even started falling behind in some ways for sensors and not kept not putting in as many features in most bodies, all the bodies but 1 series were stripped down in performance and so on and so on and then Nikon came back and you'd no longer see newspaper pool equipment totally dominated by Canon all over the place, or PJ schools categorically recommend going with Canon. Sidelines would have a lot of big black lenses again. You'd read blogs from the Olympics where PJs would trash Canon cameras for having terribly unreliable AF compared to Nikon. Sidelines were starting to get almost more black lenses than white. The 1D4 and 1DX and 5D3 seemed to stem that a lot though, especially the latter two. The D800 had the left side AF issue. It seems things are now in a pretty evenly mixed stage at this point in terms of what you see being used.)

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3319
    • View Profile
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2013, 02:46:20 AM »
All this really proves that even two of the best cameras currently made are each capable of producing suboptimal images when used incorrectly.

That statement implies that you don't know how to use a camera correctly actually  ;).

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3319
    • View Profile
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2013, 02:49:40 AM »
I do not find it to be a problem — ever. 

Fair enough. I do not find to be a problem most of the time. But when I do, I wish it was not a problem  :), and that happens often enough to be a problem.

+1
 ;D

Quote
Quote
I know these topics get pushed on DPReview, where anonymous know-it-alls try to convince everyone that Canon cameras suck. 

Some of those "anonymous know-it-alls" are John Sheehy, Bob (bobn2) and Joe James (Great Bustard); Joe posted here a few weeks ago. They also happen to be some of the most knowledgeable people there, with a few others who share their opinion but are less active.

and others are physics guys, at least one of word class level (responsible, in part, for one of the great advances in string theory)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2013, 02:49:40 AM »

Apop

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
    • Apophoto
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2013, 02:51:15 AM »
I don't really get why canon users need to defend their far inferior sensor.....Envy?

It is what it is, and apparently most of the sensors are inferior to the nikon's(or sony) in almost every aspect.
Whether it is noticeable or not in real world usage is not really that relevant.

It only matters that you are happy with the images you are getting, despite maybe not having the best equipment out there....

Looking at it from a canon users perspective (now) , I am just happy that Nikon is totally destroying canon in the sensor department , It means canon will sooner or later have to follow with better sensors.

All the time some of you spend trying to bash Nikon or defend canon, you better spend that time working so you can add a d800 with 14-24 to your kit ;)

Apop

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
    • Apophoto
Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2013, 02:55:16 AM »
I do not find it to be a problem — ever. 

Fair enough. I do not find to be a problem most of the time. But when I do, I wish it was not a problem  :), and that happens often enough to be a problem.

+1
 ;D

Quote
Quote
I know these topics get pushed on DPReview, where anonymous know-it-alls try to convince everyone that Canon cameras suck. 

Some of those "anonymous know-it-alls" are John Sheehy, Bob (bobn2) and Joe James (Great Bustard); Joe posted here a few weeks ago. They also happen to be some of the most knowledgeable people there, with a few others who share their opinion but are less active.

and others are physics guys, at least one of word class level (responsible, in part, for one of the great advances in string theory)

Sheldon cooper?

or maybe edward witten

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2013, 02:55:16 AM »