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Author Topic: 70D and Dxomark....  (Read 74340 times)

docsmith

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2013, 08:43:42 AM »
Not as clean as D7100 even @iso100 :o :o

Yet I look at those two images, and I prefer the one from the 70D.   :o :o


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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2013, 08:43:42 AM »

Apop

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #61 on: August 29, 2013, 08:43:57 AM »
Well sensor superiority is not on top of the list for everyone I guess.
Let me try to join in on the trashing and bashing, it could be fun

I like the pictures i am getting now, even though i know the d800 can take better pictures, but i found it quite awkward when handholding a d800 with 200-400 f4, to change the ISO settings (top left of the camera), I could not find how to assign it to any of the other buttons.
The same to change autofocus points, hard to reach that switch.... and the smaller mount from the nikon's don't make you feel more secure holding such a lens by the camera body.

The af-on switch needs too much pressure and is often awkward placed for people with normal hands, the body doesn't feel like an extension but something you really need to grab tightly to hold on to , Sucks when you have carpal tunnel syndrome( I don't but imagine you do :/)

Did anyone ever hold a nikon tele? did you look at the laughable filter holder which is situated in some poorly glued on weather sealing attempt , I've seen several where the filter holder had to be reglued.
After 2 weeks of using my newly purchased 200-400 it was already moving about and the glue actually had melted a bit.

4fps? really? that just sucks for wildlife, so you look at the d600 5.5 fps , could do.... , oh wait that has some old auto focus system, no dedicated af on button, and only SD card slots... It's ergonomics are a bit better than the d800 even tho it's smaller

Luckily there is a newly introduced d7100 ! with state of the art 24mp DX sensor...
Amazing image quality out of that AA filter lacking sensor, superb dynamic range...
More fps than the d600, it actually has 6!, you start shooting and after 1 second the buffer is full :/
Even with the fasted 95mb sd card it drops to around 3 fps afterwards, need to change to 12 bit to achieve somewhat better results ( or jpg!!!).

The FPS and buffer , placement of the ISO/AF buttons makes me think they don't consider people shooting wildlife in raw format with reasonably heavy lenses



meli

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2013, 08:46:35 AM »
I was already on FF when 7d came out but through the years i had a chance to review files from assistants, friends & gfs from either 7d 60d or d7000 (have to find one with a pentax now  ;D ).
The IQ difference isn't that tiny really. First you can get really nice files out of those sony sensors below 400. You can get FF quality easily, whereas 7d really has noise all over the spectrum.

I own a 7D and have shot tens of thousands of frames with it and made several hundred 16x20" prints. And you're wrong.
Perhaps you have lower standards or you just dont care, in my case i've always seen noise from that 18mp sensor even at base iso.

I've also in the past taken the time to put up 100% crop tests from FF and APS-C, Canon and Nikon bodies to see if FF or Nikon fanboys could reliably tell me which was which. They always fail, but it also always ends up a waste of my time since they continue to spout their nonsense no matter how many times they fail.
I bet you liked also that test between iphone & dslr.
Explain to me though, do you believe that in some cases with the right subject, under some circumstances, the output from any dslr might be indinstiguisable from another, or do you maintain that this is the case generally?
If its the 1st one then congratulations Captain Obvious you won the party hat, if its the 2nd then by all means, please do create a separate thread and post your thesis about how dslrs have the same output regardless brand or format, im sure it 'll be highly entertaining.

You can see a  quantitative difference with local adjustments of about 1-2 stops and what happens to color and noise.

Sure you can...when you turn off NR on one camera and not the other.
You got me there, silly me.

Quote
Quote
Obviously you can see a massive difference if you want to salvage shoots where flash or strobes didnt fire; basically those sony sensors are isoless, you could push an underexposed iso100 all the way to 3200 and there isnt much difference from a native 3200, plus the tonality will be actually greater.

Sure you can. You can also leave the lens cap on and get perfect images, or so a Nikon fan told me.
Yep sure you can and hyperboles wont help your case.

Quote
"ISOless"...priceless...thanks for the laugh.
Indeed isoless and no doubt, with the proper amount of ignorance, its laughable and "priceless". Take care.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2013, 08:49:02 AM »
Well sensor superiority is not on top of the list for everyone I guess.
Let me try to join in on the trashing and bashing, it could be fun

I like the pictures i am getting now, even though i know the d800 can take better pictures, but i found it quite awkward when handholding a d800 with 200-400 f4, to change the ISO settings (top left of the camera), I could not find how to assign it to any of the other buttons.
The same to change autofocus points, hard to reach that switch.... and the smaller mount from the nikon's don't make you feel more secure holding such a lens by the camera body.

The af-on switch needs too much pressure and is often awkward placed for people with normal hands, the body doesn't feel like an extension but something you really need to grab tightly to hold on to , Sucks when you have carpal tunnel syndrome( I don't but imagine you do :/)

Did anyone ever hold a nikon tele? did you look at the laughable filter holder which is situated in some poorly glued on weather sealing attempt , I've seen several where the filter holder had to be reglued.
After 2 weeks of using my newly purchased 200-400 it was already moving about and the glue actually had melted a bit.

4fps? really? that just sucks for wildlife, so you look at the d600 5.5 fps , could do.... , oh wait that has some old auto focus system, no dedicated af on button, and only SD card slots... It's ergonomics are a bit better than the d800 even tho it's smaller

Luckily there is a newly introduced d7100 ! with state of the art 24mp DX sensor...
Amazing image quality out of that AA filter lacking sensor, superb dynamic range...
More fps than the d600, it actually has 6!, you start shooting and after 1 second the buffer is full :/
Even with the fasted 95mb sd card it drops to around 3 fps afterwards, need to change to 12 bit to achieve somewhat better results ( or jpg!!!).

The FPS and buffer , placement of the ISO/AF buttons makes me think they don't consider people shooting wildlife in raw format with reasonably heavy lenses

Clearly, you don't understand the benefits of more DR.  If you did, you'd know that trumps all those petty concerns that you mention.  ::)
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Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2013, 08:57:18 AM »
I just don't trust any anonymous person to give me a reliable opinion, let alone to instruct others about a camera's technical details.

I disagree with that statement, see also next paragraph. It is up to you to decide whether to "trust" it or not. The source does not matter - you either agree with the logic, or you do not. To put it in more bluntly - you either get it or not. It is not trust, it is understanding. Now, it is another thing whether you trust DXO measurements or nor because you cannot repeat them with just a mental experiment.

On the other hand, people without "technical" skills need to trust somebody. Nothing wrong with being the artistic type; photography is an art, after all, and the world would be a very boring place without those people.

Apop

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2013, 09:10:35 AM »
Clearly, you don't understand the benefits of more DR.  If you did, you'd know that trumps all those petty concerns that you mention.  ::)


Owww, so more DR will make up for missed shots :D?
more DR will make up for shooting at the wrong ISO? (maybe even 2 high, that costs DR you know;) )
more DR will make up for the ergonomics and lens designs
more DR will make up for less memory buffer than my Alzheimer suffering grandma
more DR will it make up for all the older folks with money to buy the big lenses who are breaking their backs on the 5 kg 400/600 lens from nikon? let them enjoy 3.8 kilos from canon!
more DR will it make up for the cramps in my hands at the end of a day of shooting ?
more DR will it make up for the inferior IQ big teles from nikon !?
more DR will it fix my filter holder?
more DR will it automatically selects the best AF mode ( 5 point 9 poin dynamic 19 /51 /3d or?)
more DR will it increase my FPS?
more DR will it make my lens mount more buffed and make me feel like a man again?
more DR will it be more DR above ISO 1000/1600?
more DR will it give me GPS and wifi?
more DR will it let me switch from all af points ->af on button <-> to selected af point with * button? ( essentialy effortless switching from using ALL af points to a zone or center point with expansion) <--- this rocks on canon and eveyone not using it yet should!

more DR will it give me white lenses?
more DR will it give me fluorite elements without spending 18k$ on a 800 f5.6?
more DR will it give me ''cheaper'' telephoto options (300f4IS 400 f5.6)
more DR will it give me a good 70-300 L
more DR will it give me a wheel on the back of my camera? my carpal tunnel syndrome was fueled by pressing the buttons so much on the back if my nikons , that with bad ergonomics messed me up!
more DR will it make the buttons on the nikons need less pressure to actually do something!?
more DR will it make me a better photographer?
more DR will it make my camera look sexy?
more DR will it make it to a canon body any time soon?
more DR , i want it


BTW
3 seconds of action

d800 : 12 shots of 36MP awesomeness, gotta hope for right AF setting and ISO(16 in dx crop)
d7100: 14 shots(at best) => 24 mp awesomeness
d600 :  16 shots 24MP => 10.6mp in crop ( 9.4 in canon equivalent)
6d     : 14 shots 20mp good IQ but probably OOF(i hope the center point is good )<-
5dIII: 18 shots (with proper ISO and AF)
7d   : 24 shots (with proper ISO and AFmaybe) And twice the pixels on target compared to d600!

1d4 : 30 shots (with proper ISO and af+ exposure)

d4  :  30 shots (probably really good!, but wrong ISO and AF mode due to position of switches, also less pixels on target than the 1dx and a LOT less than the 1d4 !!!! 9.46 when cropped to 1d4 equivalent

1dx : 36 shots (proper everything , including more resolution than d4)


Sounds like for sports and wildlife you need a 1dx ....
If you cannot afford one get a 1dmkiv
If you heavy and inferior nikon lenses get a D4!(I think it has the best buffer of the the three though)

Above ISO 800/1000 where you often are when shooting wildlife, is the Nikon DR still THAT much superior to the canon?

300 f2.8 : Better and lighter on canon side ( even according to dxo!)
400 f2.8 : Better and lighter on canon side (Equal to dxo, but they compare 36/24 mp cameras with 22)
500 f4    : much better & lighter
600 f4    : much better & lighter

Teleconverter performance? Night and day!

300 f2.8 IS II 2xIII TC equals or bests the 400 f2.8 from nikon + 1.4 !
600+2x looks like the 600 from nikon +1.4 tc



No doubt when you shoot landscapes/architecture or whatever other boring stuff (j/k) that a d800/d800e with 14-24 is Mount Everest

But Canon in other departments (sports/wildlife) is just OLYMPUS MONS !!!! (MARS).

Ow boy now i feel so good about my choice for canon, I will need to do this more often

« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:23:35 AM by Apop »

Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2013, 09:24:17 AM »
more DR will make up for shooting at the wrong ISO? (maybe even 2 high, that costs DR you know;) )

In many situations, yes, to a large extent.

If you shoot at ISO 100 instead of, say, ISO 800, and push in RAW conversion, more DR will make you shot very close to the ISO 800 one. You may get some posterization but, say, a 16 bit sensor would be completely free of that. There are many such examples on the web. Try that with a Canon sensor.

Now, will more fps, and anything else you mention, make up for the strong shadows noise?

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2013, 09:24:17 AM »

awinphoto

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2013, 10:31:50 AM »
Gosh threads like this is why i visit canonrumors less and less.  I'd rather hang out at creativelive learning about what I CAN do with a camera and produce better images that I can SELL to my clients than hang out here saying I cant do this or cant do that with a camera.  It amazes me how many professionals for decades have been using Canon and selling images from their inferior canon camera and make money hand over fist.  Only photographers sit looking at their images 3 stop underexposed on the monitors at 200% looking for pattern noise at ISO 100.  Get a freaking life, learn how to expose properly, and take some freaking pictures for God sake or sell your gear and jump to sony for all I care... Just stop this nonsense. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

Apop

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2013, 10:42:33 AM »
more DR will make up for shooting at the wrong ISO? (maybe even 2 high, that costs DR you know;) )

In many situations, yes, to a large extent.

If you shoot at ISO 100 instead of, say, ISO 800, and push in RAW conversion, more DR will make you shot very close to the ISO 800 one. You may get some posterization but, say, a 16 bit sensor would be completely free of that. There are many such examples on the web. Try that with a Canon sensor.

Now, will more fps, and anything else you mention, make up for the strong shadows noise?


Shadows are generally not my subject :(
And again I am not arguing against the superiority of Nikon's sensors.
I shot extensively with a d800 for 8 months, I did not switch because I did not like having such a good sensor!

The flaming is just fun to join in with the rest of the monkeys for once :D

And to answer your question, for me getting 30 instead of 12 shots ( 1dmkiv now , previously the d800)
Can make quite a big difference.
When i am out, I am hoping or waiting for a moment that I am likely to never encounter again.

Having 18 additional frames where that moment might be captured (2.5 times as many frames) is something I took into consideration.

Additionally once the buffer is full the d800 should drop to around 1fps, when the 1dmkiv can sustain around 4.
On previous occasions I had a full buffer on some exiting moments (adrenaline makes one trigger happy), being 'stuck' with 1 fps can feel quite limiting.

Before the d800, on the d7000 with a 45mb/s SD card it was even worse when i was shooting raw to one slot and jpg to another!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 10:53:22 AM by Apop »

sdsr

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2013, 10:46:06 AM »
Not as clean as D7100 even @iso100 :o :o

Yet I look at those two images, and I prefer the one from the 70D.   :o :o

Not having seen the subjects in real life it's hard to say for sure, but the colours look better to me in the Canon photo - the Nikon seems to be suffering from that green bias shared by the D600 and D800.  I thought the D7100 was supposed to be free of that.  But it's hard to compare the two because, for whatever reason, they're not exposed the same: the Canon photo is noticeably darker than the Nikon (in my experience Nikon cameras expose brighter than Canon cameras at the same settings).

sdsr

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2013, 11:10:11 AM »
I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what that 3 stop of extra DR can mean (5D3 on top, D800 on the bottom):


I think we know what it can mean, but it would help if the examples were more appealing.  All you've shown us is that one thing I would rather not look at looks a bit better than another thing I would rather not look at....

As for jumping ship, I think people tend to exaggerate how hard it is.  In the past few years I've jumped ship from Nikon APS-C to Pentax APS-C to Canon FF, bought a second ship (Olympus) and toyed with a third (Nikon FF) before deciding against it after renting a couple.  Each time I switched I sold all the previous equipment I had bought.  Depending on whether I had bought it new or used I received less/more/the same as I had paid for it in the first place.  I may have overall "lost" but I don't look at it that way - I think if it as the (not very high) price of using that equipment during the time I owned it and an extremely useful learning experience.

Pentax, by the way, provided a rather good example of why DR isn't enough.  I owned a K-5, with a K-x as back-up.  At the time there seemed to be fairly wide agreement that the K-5 had the best sensor of any APS-C camera (the same Sony sensor as the D7000 but run by slightly better software), and it was a good camera in other ways too (esp. ergonomics).  The dynamic range was simply astonishing - when I first bought it I would amuse myself by fooling around with deep shadows in DxO and LR, amazed by what it could reveal (not that the results were worth keeping...); and yes, there were a few times, mainly involving sharply contrasting light in the alleys of Lugano, when it proved useful.  But the relative shortage of first rate lenses with fast, accurate focusing soon became old....

1255

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2013, 12:00:01 PM »
Nikon picked up their game for sensors.

I think you mean Sony picked up their game, and Nikon came along for the ride.

love you neuro

1255

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2013, 12:02:08 PM »
I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what that 3 stop of extra DR can mean (5D3 on top, D800 on the bottom):

I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 5x macro lens as part of the system can mean (5DII + MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro on top, no competiton on the bottom):





I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 12 fps-capable body and handholdable 600mm f/4 lens as part of the system can mean (1D X + EF 600mm f/4L IS II on top, no competiton on the bottom):



meant to include these as well with my love you neuro comment

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2013, 12:02:08 PM »

MichaelHodges

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2013, 12:07:02 PM »
These threads are always amusing.

I didn't exchange vows with my Canon gear, I just like it. If another manufacturer is winning the sensor war, so be it. And it looks like that's the case.

I love my Canon gear. would I like Canon to improve their outdated sensors (in context)? Sure. But it doesn't stop me from enjoying what I have.

I'm not surprised that the 70D is not an IQ upgrade, either. Who rightfully expected that?

« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:09:28 PM by MichaelHodges »

1255

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #74 on: August 29, 2013, 12:11:37 PM »

Its the art you create with it that matters.


+1. but painters totally complain about their brushes.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:41:58 PM by 1255 »

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #74 on: August 29, 2013, 12:11:37 PM »