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Author Topic: 70D and Dxomark....  (Read 62297 times)

vab3

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #150 on: August 30, 2013, 01:04:13 AM »
Isn't the interesting innovation here that we may have better live view/video autofocus with no loss of quality over the previous sensor?  This technology will eventually work its way into other larger and smaller cameras.  Just sayin'.  People want video.  We look at our pictures on our screens and phones. We film ourselves twerking and put it on youtube.   And the sensor that can do that still has great quality for prints.


p.s. I would like more dynamic range, too.  5d mk iv? :P

Aglet

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #151 on: August 30, 2013, 01:06:08 AM »
.. learn how to expose properly, and take some freaking pictures for God sake or sell your gear and jump to sony for all I care... Just stop this nonsense. 

how do YOU "expose properly" for a scene that exceeds your Canon's DR?
Are you content to clip highlites and shadows and live with the out-of-camera tone curve for every shot?
If so, your advice may not register with the more artistic photographers.

Aglet Aglet Aglet ::Shakes head::  I expose the way I expose.  I've been shooting professionally for the last 10 years and been shooting even longer...  I look at a scene, look at what the meter tells me, and I either go with it or call it's bluff and compensate as i see fit.  It's not rocket science.  I get a shot, if it looks the way I want it to, great, if not, I compensate more.  When it's exposed the way I want it, It's good.  If you dont know how to expose, go, get off this forum, and start shooting. 

As far as going into a scene with too much DR... what absolute non-sense...  I've shot back in the days of 4x5 film, shot transparency, medium format, the early canon DSLRs which had what, 5 stops of DR?  If a scene is too dark, brighten it, if you cant brigten it without over exposing something else, use flash, or even better off camera flash, or reflector or some other way to manipulate the light.  Dear god son, this is photo 101, well maybe 102.  This isn't hard.  A real photographer doesn't blame his gear for not getting the shot.  A real photographer knows what needs to be done, and makes the photo even better. As i've said before, a client NEVER has looked at my photos and said "it's a shame there wasn't more DR"... Hell, the average client doesn't even know what noise is.  This is pure pixel peeping madness and it's disgusting.

Well, that was kind of a rhetorical question.  I know the answers. :)

What you seem to be saying is "compromise your exposure" or "manipulate the light" to fit your gear.
Perfectly good advice, that's what has to be done whether it's to fit the limitations of the camera or to change the appearance of the scene.  However, such methods are not always desirable or even possible.  So that advice, good as it is, may also be a bit trite.
I just prefer to have equipment that's less limiting than Canon's, especially since there have been better options available for a few years now and Canon's only improved marginally (base ISO) since their original CMOS sensor hit the scene years before that. They've in fact gone backwards and have only recently returned to where they used to be a few system generations ago when it comes to FPN.

I'm probably not the only one that's not surprised, and also disappointed, that the 70D is not significantly improved for still photography over its predecessor except for an improved AF system.
This simply means we're STILL waiting for Canon to catch up to the competition in the area of basic sensor system metrics.
That said, what they've accomplished with this new sensor-based AF is impressive!  Adding the 7d's PDAF system is a big plus too.

I've still made lots of great images with my Canons, (especially the Digic 3 and older ones) but I've also experienced plenty of situations in landscape shooting where FPN (Digic 4 systems) has shown up, not just in shadows, but in midtones.  Some of this FPN is not just read noise in shadows but also seems to be intra-sensor inconsistency.  Translation, their sensor production lines are not as precise as they need to be.  But I digress…

70d's to be lauded for its AF breakthrough, but not much else as far as I can see.

Aglet

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #152 on: August 30, 2013, 01:08:29 AM »
On my 1DX I just hit a couple of button and bracket, never failed me this far. Generally prefer the results I get from blending exposures over what I get from using sliders on 1 exposure too  :).

Exposure blending's a great work-around, but not always practical. (moving scene elements)

Aglet

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #153 on: August 30, 2013, 01:11:48 AM »
Well, as innovative as the 70D's new dual-sensel pixels for continuous AF are, the overall signal to noise ratios, as reported by DxOmark, have changed very little.  Hopefully there'll be less banding in dark shadow for those who need to push it but I thought I'd put together some animated gifs to compare the difference between the 70D and the 60D and then the 70D compared to the Nikon D5200.
I hope DxOmark will allow this editorial use of their material here.  If not, it can be removed easily enough.
I find the complete SNR graphs are more useful to see where the low ISO deep shadow SNR limits are and what the highlite end shows for difference, which combined can help indicate DR and more.  Switching between them is a useful way to quickly see the differences.
One take away from all of this though is that somehow they managed to double the number of pixels and add a significantly useful feature (the Dual Pixel AF) without breaking anything.  Of course it doesn't look like they made any significant improvement in the low end noise either -- oh well.  However, I think the jury is still out until we get a look at the back of a lens cap (or something similar) to see what the pattern noise looks like.  I am very curious if any improvement has been made in that area.

+1, the AF development is quite remarkable and accomplished w-o breaking still IQ performance, actually improving on it ever so slightly in some areas.
I'll get some lens cap shots as soon as my local dealer has some stock.  I'm curious about not just what FPN there may be, but whether I can also see where the dual sensels are bordered by the regular ones.

trav.cunningham

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #154 on: August 30, 2013, 01:26:05 AM »
Wow! I am new to this forum and I have two comments.
1. You all have way too much time on your hands. If you need something to do, I have lots of projects that need getting done.  ;)
2. I am surprised to see Nixon users on a Canon forum. What's with that? Shouldn't you be on a Nixon forum or something?
This thread has really turned me off to this forum. :(

Might I suggest you go look at the images section of the forum... there are some absolutely fantastic images there and it is both a great source of inspiration and a place to ask questions. It has helped many of us to become better photographers.... and the images are taken with everything from p/s cameras to $15,000 lens/body combo...

Thanks Don. I will be spending my time on that thread. I didn't mean to be rude, I was just very surprised.

For what it's worth, the 70D will be my upgrade from my Rebel.

David Hull

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #155 on: August 30, 2013, 01:35:28 AM »
Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.
I suspect that DR is not the number one priority for most people buying a 1Dx.

Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #156 on: August 30, 2013, 02:03:27 AM »
Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.
I suspect that DR is not the number one priority for most people buying a 1Dx.

Famateur  suggested that it is: If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Alrik89

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #157 on: August 30, 2013, 02:10:18 AM »
Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.
I suspect that DR is not the number one priority for most people buying a 1Dx.

Famateur  suggested that it is: If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Well, i want to see some of these guys - that one, that earn a lot of money with photography and bought a Nikon only for DR reason.
And i am still waiting for tons of pictures of the DR zealots here at CR to show the awesomeness of their pictures. Until now, we still get to see only really awful shots.
Hey, DR zealots, that is your chance: come up with your best work and excite us all.

David Hull

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #158 on: August 30, 2013, 02:24:31 AM »
Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.
Yea...



Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.
I suspect that DR is not the number one priority for most people buying a 1Dx.

Famateur  suggested that it is: If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Yea, I saw that one.  I didn't know that DR was a "professional" feature.  You learn something every day, I guess  :)

Famateur

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #159 on: August 30, 2013, 02:44:53 AM »
Famateur  suggested that it is: If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

No, actually I didn't suggest or imply that in my statement -- intentionally, anyway. Apparently I failed to communicate my point well (that happens occasionally :) ).

It was not that you must buy a 1DX to get DR. In fact, I deliberately made no mention of make, model or sensor in that statement (Pi brought in the 1DX DR comparison). It was simply to note that if your photography is at a high enough level that a stop or two of dynamic range is legitimately holding you back, what on earth are you doing complaining about the sensor in a mid-level amateur/enthusiast crop-sensor camera?

My point about "professional level gear" was more about the fact that I don't see a lot of noteworthy photographers spending much time complaining about their gear (or the competition's gear). They're too busy making beautiful photos. I also don't see a lot of people whom I consider in the market segment Canon is aiming the 70D at ever talking about (or in a lot of instances even aware of) dynamic range.

Does the constant back-and-forth about DR on a thread about a mid-level amateur/enthusiast crop-sensor camera seem silly to anyone else?

Ah crap...I've gotten sucked in and have transgressed against the 10 commandments of CR by becoming the forth to someone else's back. Time for some penance...

Famateur

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #160 on: August 30, 2013, 02:47:46 AM »
D'oh! My comment HAD to push it to TWELVE pages! Sorry everyone...

Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #161 on: August 30, 2013, 02:50:28 AM »
It was simply to note that if your photography is at a high enough level that a stop or two of dynamic range is legitimately holding you back, what on earth are you doing complaining about the sensor in a mid-level amateur/enthusiast crop-sensor camera?

It has nothing to do with the level of the camera. Canon's DR sucks on all levels. Almost every other brand: Nikon, Pentax, Fuji, you name it, beats every Canon regardless of price. I am not arguing how important it is for you or anybody else. For me, it often is, because of what I like to do. For many others - probably not.

NormanBates

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #162 on: August 30, 2013, 02:55:24 AM »
Canon fanboys are so much fun... I bet they'd be defending their phone as a superior way of taking images if they had spent $4K on the system  8)

So sad...

CarlTN

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #163 on: August 30, 2013, 03:09:13 AM »
Canon fanboys are so much fun... I bet they'd be defending their phone as a superior way of taking images if they had spent $4K on the system  8)

So sad...

What's funny is, people are doing fairly decent photography with their phones, sometimes.  Yesterday I visited a print shop whose owner had proudly displayed an approximately 24 x 60 inch print of a pano shot he had done with his iPhone.  From 10 feet away I had to admit it was nice.  I didn't get up close...the counter was in the way...no accident?  Haha...still, it looked quite good.

As for wondering why "serious" or "professional" photographers would talk so much about a new crop sensor camera...mainly because it's a new Canon product, but also because DXOmark is known for being in the bag for Nikon/Sony...at least regarding camera bodies.

And also, of course there are those (many) who like to either have a crop sensor camera as their backup, or else they use it as their primary...for the reach advantage on telephoto lenses.  This is a new Canon sensor, so it's kind of a big deal...considering the old one has been around 5 years...and might be around for another 5 years in one form or another.  Also there's at least an even chance this sensor will find its way into the 7D2.

Aglet

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #164 on: August 30, 2013, 03:34:56 AM »
OK, put the popcorn away for a minute. :)
Let's do some quick analysis using DxOmark's data.

Putting aside the 70D's sensor-based AF achievement for a moment, let's look at the Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) of today's 70d, compared with the 20d from 9 years ago, and the 10d from 10 years ago.
As SNR goes, so does DR to a large extent but SNR is a little more telling and when you compare them overlaid you can see how they differ and where the changes in sensor performance are.

The upper blue line is the ISO 100 SNR plot for all 3 cameras.
On all 3 cameras you'll see that the 100% gray scale (white) is at about the same 42dB level.  So all 3 have the same SNR at white.

Where the line meets the bottom axis is where signal = noise and the image information gets lost in the noise and vice-versa. Well, unless there's a pattern that's discernible but DxOmark is still not publishing noise pattern data as far as I know. (I've requested that they do so we can estimate FPN severity of a sensor.)

Anyway, the signal=noise level of 0db is the cutoff level for all ISO measurements.  That is at gray scale 0.052% for the 70d at 100(claimed) ISO.  That's about 10.9 stops of highlite-to-dark range where dark = average noise. (It's late at night, somebody please correct me if I make a math mistake here, auto-correct may also mess up some spelling)

Without getting the specific data points for the other 2 cameras we can see that they also have about the same end points for 0db and white.

Net result.  At a per-pixel level, the 70d's base ISO performance has not improved in 10 years.  But, because it's pixels are about half the total area of the 10d's pixels (likely slightly more because of better fill-factor in modern sensors where more surface is actually actively used but lets go with half as that's in the 70d's favour) the 70d has made a technical achievement of about 1 full effective stop for one full effective pixel.
This may be even better by one more stop because of the way the split-pixel AF system functions but since I have no technical details on how this is really done at the sensor level I'll leave this to other tech types to expound. I'm also not considering each camera's real-effective ISO performance, just the rated level.

If we look at some other ISO levels:

- the 20D has better SNR results at white for all ISO levels.  This is not something that's easy to see in prints since a little noise on a big signal pretty much disappears.  This is also due in part to the physics of larger pixels, which is why full-frame sensors do even better. The 10D is similar to the 20D except for its highest ISO which falls down a bit

- the 20D's curves are ALL higher in every part of the graph, denoting that its SNR is better than the 70D's at all intensities from white right down into very dark shades at matching ISOs.  The 10D's curves are considerably lower; it has worse SNR than the 20D pretty much at every point below base ISO.


SUMMARY.

At a per-pixel level, the 20D was a significant improvement over the 10D which came 1 year before it.  The 70D, at the same per-pixel level, has not improved and is slightly worse than the 9 year old 20D.  Taking into account the smaller pixels of the 70D's sensor, the practical net improvement is less than 1 stop in 9 years. (possibly close to 2 stops, depending on how the dual-sensel-AF-pixels really work)

Compared the 20D to the 60D/7D and Rebel xx0 using 18MP sensors we have an honest improvement of less than 1 stop in the period between the 20D and the 7D's release.

So, if Canon's 70D sensor is read out in such a way as to provide the same level of read noise as a regular single sensel pixel then they may be able to achieve a measurable improvement (nearly 1 stop) in base ISO dark noise which should translate into a similar improvement in total DR of a similar sensor NOT using this new AF system.

So, will the 7D Mark II have no such split AF pixels and offer us slightly improved SNR and DR because of this method or will they do something more akin to the Exmor's superior noise elimination?
Or will they provide these new AF pixels and compromise the stills performance for the sake of video and improved live-view AF?

Please Canon, give us the best possible STILLS camera in the 7D Mark II.  I might then buy one.