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Author Topic: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]  (Read 26166 times)

Dave

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2011, 10:57:44 AM »
good point, Dave
7D FF would be great too.
equipped with the 5Dii's 21 MP sensor
clean ISO 6400
ISO 50-25600
Digic V ?
same AF

Yeah, but I don't think so... If take a 7D going FF you have a 5D (or even more). And I wouldn't call a 7D "entry level" at the current pricing.

I can't understand why canon is spreading the line so much. If I were Canon I would reduce the number of product lines instead of increasing it.

1DS
1D
5D
7D
XXD
XXXD
XXXXD

Indeed! There's definitly missing a cheaper FF camera, but imo there is not that much room for a new line.

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2011, 10:57:44 AM »

Bokehmon

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2011, 11:06:14 AM »
If this is a sub product to the 5DIII then it's pretty obvious that this new 6D camera is a 5DIII using the old 5D>5DII evolution formula. Eg, pretty much the same camera but with a newer Digic processor and more MP.
So that would indicate that the 5DIII will be a substantially better camera than the 6D/5DII. Looks like our 5D will eventually become the mythical 3D after all!

$6999 -- 1Ds: FF high res studio monster 

$4999 -- 1D: FF low res speed demon

$3999 -- 3D: FF higher end

$2499 -- 5D: FF entry level

$1799 -- 7D: APS-C high end

$1199 -- 9D: future of XXD series? enthusiast camera

$899 -- XXXD: mid range APS-C

$599 -- XXXXD: entry level APS-C


« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 11:09:47 AM by Bokehmon »

Eagle Eye

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2011, 12:18:07 PM »
A lot of people here don't think that R&D for new cameras cost money....

If they were to come out with a budget FF camera, it would be a lot like what they did with the XXXXD series... recycle old sensors and add/ cut out some new features.

If there is an entry level FF camera, then the most cost effective way to produce it would be to use the 5DII sensor, and some AF system they already have... ie the current 5D one or 7D one....

They can then sell this at a lower market price without have to spend money on R&D while protecting the sales of a newer tech 5DIII.

It makes much more sense from a market standpoint to use the same sensor (7D, 60D, 600D) and vary the features because that reduces costs.

Along this line, I expect that the new 5DIII will have the same sensor as a 1DsIV. Either the 1DsIV will drop to like 6999 price point or the 5DIII will rise to 3499.

+1
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dilbert

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2011, 12:18:34 PM »
Canon now have a megapixel problem in the form of the 24MP APS-C sensor in the new Sony cameras.

Any new full frame camera with fewer than 24MP will need to have an extremely good set of features and sensor to sell against that, more so than what Nikon did for the D700.


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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2011, 02:55:04 PM »
If the 1D and 1Ds are to be merged then isn't the aps-h sensor going to be abandonded?
so maybe it'll be a
7DII aps-h with 18(or 21)MP
and the rest basically the same (maybe dual digic V)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 02:59:43 PM by shtfmeister »

neuroanatomist

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2011, 03:22:59 PM »
so maybe it'll be a
7DII aps-h with 18(or 21)MP
and the rest basically the same (maybe dual digic V)

Unlikely.  A 7D with APS-C and compatibility with EF-S lenses, and a 7DII that's neither?  Nope.
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trulandphoto

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2011, 05:36:17 PM »
Entry level?  Really?  Do you even use one?  In what ways, apart from autofocus, is the 5d mark ii an entry level dslr?  As for putting a 12mp sensor from the 5d into a new body, do you really think canon would market a camera with iso 3200?  They'd use the sensor from the 5d mark ii and stretch the technology.  Everyone who was going to buy a 5d ii has pretty much bought one.  Some will upgrade to a new higher end body, others will buy a second body on the lower end.  Still others would upgrade from the rebel, 60d, or 7d.  It would be shrewd of canon to puruse this.


Yes Mister, I use 2 5D mark II's as I am a professional wedding photographer. Feature wise the 5D MKII is nothing more then the 5D MK I except for a higher pixelcount and the added video (which is not being used by many photographers - not said videographers who love the 5D MKII).

If the 5D MKII hadn't had the video it would have been a 6 year old camera with just a higher MP sensor.

Compare the 5D MK II ISO performance with a Nikon D3 or D3x and you know that your 5D2 is not that special anymore... 5D MKII for these days is just old technology.  As for the autofocus of the 5D MKII that has always been a big laugh. Just one central AF point which easily causes OOF pictures when you need to recompose (at big apertures) or when you are in low contrast conditions.

This seems like pure BS. Digic II vs. Digic 4, live view, almost twice the pixels with great IQ, sensor cleaning, etc. It's hard to believe you actually use cameras at all.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 05:42:56 PM by trulandphoto »

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2011, 05:36:17 PM »

pwp

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2011, 05:37:08 PM »
7DII with FF just won't happen. It would shut out too many potential upgrade customers with a current 7D and a bag full of EF-S glass.

Paul Wright

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2011, 06:00:00 PM »
7DII with FF just won't happen. It would shut out too many potential upgrade customers with a current 7D and a bag full of EF-S glass.

Paul Wright
I agree. If an entry level DSLR is coming, it won't be named 7d mkii. It just doesn't make sense and it will confuse customers.
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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2011, 06:27:56 PM »
Yeah, but I don't think so... If take a 7D going FF you have a 5D (or even more). And I wouldn't call a 7D "entry level" at the current pricing.

I can't understand why canon is spreading the line so much. If I were Canon I would reduce the number of product lines instead of increasing it.

1DS
1D
5D
7D
XXD
XXXD
XXXXD

Indeed! There's definitly missing a cheaper FF camera, but imo there is not that much room for a new line.

Agreed

I dont understand why they can't take the 60D as we have it today and stick the FF sensor of the 5D2 in there.
That could make the xxD series the entry FF cameras and differentiate them from the xxxD line better.

They really need to either drop or merge a few lines so they can refine their products to particular markets more.

eg
1D m4     (1D + 1Ds lines merged full frame PRO photo camera)
5D m3     (high end video rich DSLR)
7D           (high end APS-c line)
60D m2   (budget FF line)
600D       (basic APS-c line)
1100D     (beginners DSLR line)

That way the xD series are the pro cameras, the xxD are the semi pros or advanced amateurs, xxxD is where the money is with the bulk of retail sales and hobbyists, xxxxD my first DSLR people (also in funky colours to sell to younger generations).
Yes, i shoot video on a DSLR.

Bokehmon

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2011, 06:32:44 PM »
Yeah, but I don't think so... If take a 7D going FF you have a 5D (or even more). And I wouldn't call a 7D "entry level" at the current pricing.

I can't understand why canon is spreading the line so much. If I were Canon I would reduce the number of product lines instead of increasing it.

1DS
1D
5D
7D
XXD
XXXD
XXXXD

Indeed! There's definitly missing a cheaper FF camera, but imo there is not that much room for a new line.

Agreed

I dont understand why they can't take the 60D as we have it today and stick the FF sensor of the 5D2 in there.
That could make the xxD series the entry FF cameras and differentiate them from the xxxD line better.

They really need to either drop or merge a few lines so they can refine their products to particular markets more.

eg
1D m4     (1D + 1Ds lines merged full frame PRO photo camera)
5D m3     (high end video rich DSLR)
7D           (high end APS-c line)
60D m2   (budget FF line)
600D       (basic APS-c line)
1100D     (beginners DSLR line)

That way the xD series are the pro cameras, the xxD are the semi pros or advanced amateurs, xxxD is where the money is with the bulk of retail sales and hobbyists, xxxxD my first DSLR people (also in funky colours to sell to younger generations).

you clearly don't understand that the cost of producing a full frame sensor would mean that they cannot maintain the 60D price point. also, canon isn't can't just combine cameras, they need to compete against the competition at certain price points and features, which means that a one shoe fits all scenario is unlikely.

gene_can_sing

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2011, 06:36:56 PM »
I have a feeling this might be the Video optimized full frame.

Why? Because video works best with lower mega-pixels. I've read that for the best video, the camera shouldn't go above 12 mega pixels because it starts to introduce line skipping.

That would be awesome because I just want a full frame video camera with a flip screen (which many stills people hate) that has lower megapixels and better ISOs, kind of like the Nikon D700, but with good video.

This is what is needed. 1) A video based full frame, and also 2) a still based full frame 5D3 for those who hate video (but it will probably still have video because it's become a huge part of Canon's strategy). Video was a HUGE reason for the 5D2 success, so sorry stills people, but it's here to stay.

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2011, 06:49:23 PM »
It's only a matter of time until Canon follows through on this.  Like they did with the 7d sensor, they'll place a full frame sensor in multiple bodies, stretching their profits from the r&d and actually reducing costs for the consumer in the long run as well. I wouldn't be surprised, given that the 5d mark ii is fairly frequently backordered, if Canon simply placed the same sensor in a plastic body, stuck a digic 5 in there, and pulled a bunch of features out.  The cost of producing it would not be staggering and i surmise it would sell well as a prosumer camera at around 1600?
I love this idea, and hope entry level is actually really accessable.
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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2011, 06:49:23 PM »

JonB1975

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2011, 06:58:22 PM »
Depending on the price - I'm in.

600D size and weight and FF?  Perfect for the mid-level primes....

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2011, 07:14:08 PM »
7DII with FF just won't happen. It would shut out too many potential upgrade customers with a current 7D and a bag full of EF-S glass.

Paul Wright

I can count 4 EF-S lenses that would make people possibly hesitate at FF and nothing more:
EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM
EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM
EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM
EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM

I own and use the last 3; they wouldn't stop me from getting a FF camera. The above lenses resale isn't all that bad, if you got them at a reasonably good price to start with.

Whatever the badge is, an entry level FF is DEFINITELY aimed at  the 60D/7D owners and potential buyers.

We also don't know what's going to happen with the next gen of cameras.  I've seen more than a few people on this forum mention that they do not like the articulating screen for robustness reasons, but it'd be hard for a company to explain why an articulating screen isn't added to any 'entry' level camera in almost any camera.

Personally, I like the rumor but won't get my hopes up . . . I wanted a 7D but could not force myself to pony up the cash and not get FF.  I guess we'll see.

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2011, 07:14:08 PM »