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Author Topic: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]  (Read 27076 times)

dilbert

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2011, 06:15:59 PM »
An entry level full frame DSLR would be a very interesting tactical move for Canon vs Nikon/Sony if the price was around that of the 7D (sub USD$2000)

At USD$1500, a "6D" with a 21MP sensor (or less?), improved AF (i.e AF that works!) but otherwise the same basic feature set as the 5D MK2 would be very interesting...

It would completely change the landscape of DSLR sales in the sub-$2k bracket.

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2011, 06:15:59 PM »

rcha101

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2011, 07:59:05 PM »
Hi,

Wow, certainly a mix of opinions and ideas here which seem to stem from 2 camps of prospective customers those who want a mirrorless camera (cheap leica?) and those who would be interested in a lower end FF.

As an xxD casual photographer who is keen to upgrade to FF the things that appeal to me would be low light performance, picture and LCD quality. I could live with a xxxD size body but with the wear and tear resistance of the xxD series. I would also be happy with a 7D2 with a FF sensor or a non-video 5D2 for 2k. I've found it hard to justify 2500 for a new body and have been waiting 3 years for something which better fits my needs. Worse case I wait until the 5D3 comes out and pick up a cheap 5D2.

Let's see what happens this week.

R

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2011, 10:51:03 PM »
After giving it some thoughts, I think this rumor goes well with Canon's decision of expanding factory operations in Taiwan.

If I recall correctly, one of the local magazines (business magazine, not camera-related) reported in an earlier articles that the capacity in the new factory will be tapped for the production of 5DII, which is slated to begin somewhere in mid-2012.

Now that there's a rumor about an entry-level FF camera, the earlier report would make much more sense. Why shift production of an old product to a new overseas plant which specialize in making lower-end product such as 1100D, 600D, and entry-level EF-s glasses?

So I guess "entry-level" and "full frame" might be Canon's answer to the m43 boom. Indeed, that would make more sense for consumers to carry a 600D-size/price DSLR if it yields high quality pictures.

Now what remains to be seen is the price...
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Hillsilly

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2011, 11:56:46 PM »
Six to Seven years ago, everyone was talking about the demise of crop bodied cameras.  People were very optimistic that the cost of producing sensors would continually fall and that FF cameras would become a lot more affordable.  Maybe Canon have developed some manufacturing efficiencies (or benefits from increasing volume) and this is the start of that?  Maybe its time to start offloading EF-S lenses onto "non-CR" people?

In any case, as long as it had some weather sealing and at least 5fps, I'd be very interested in a bare bones 5Diii at the right price (approx $1800-$2000).  As the price increases above that point, the little man inside my head will probably start saying "its only a little bit extra to get something a lot better".  Hopefully, by then, rumours of a "much improved" 5Div might start surfacing and I can hold onto my money for a few more years.
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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2011, 12:02:31 AM »
Quote
If they really would want to do something like this, it would be far simpler to lower prices on the 5DII, keeping it current alongside a new, and much more expensive 5DIII

That's the most rational comment on this thread. (Faint praise, I suppose, given some of the bizarre comments this rumor is prompting, but it is meant as a compliment.)
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Dave

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2011, 12:07:13 AM »
Quote
Well, I don't need a new entry level FF camera and I don't see it coming. This rumor doesn't make sens at all. FF DSLR system is
If you have video in mind a cheap (and no manufacturer can afford to ignore video) FF cam makes a lot of sense.

If I were canon and wanted to release an "entry level FF cam":
- pricing around the 60D
- plastic body
- a comparably low resolution like 12 MP or so
- low shutter speed
- digital viewfinder
- features on the level of a 600D...
- but optimized for video with some nice feature  that no other cam has at the moment
- a new EF mega-zoom Kit lense (18-2xx mm)

Because of the low resolution and an electronic VF (time is not ready yet for a pro EVIL cam) it would neither be in competition to the other pro cams like 5D nor the low-end cams (1100D 600D 60D).
But for video you don't need a hight resolution.

Imo this kind of "hybrid" cams would sell like hot cakes.
Everybody would be happy:
- canon has satisfied the market: "Yes we have an EVIL cam!" (and Canon really NEEDS an EVIL cam)
- the photo freaks are happy since they can keep their optical viewfinder
- the pros are happy since the new XD would compete their FF cams
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 12:42:48 AM by Dave »

Dave

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2011, 12:13:08 AM »
Quote
If they really would want to do something like this, it would be far simpler to lower prices on the 5DII, keeping it current alongside a new, and much more expensive 5DIII

This wouldn't work, because the 5D is still too superior to lower the price significantly. Many pro users would be quite pi**ed off.
I guess Canon wants to enter a new market (and as said before this market probably has something to do with video).
The art of selling a new line is to take a way some features to keep old customers happy and to invent some new features to low price to get new customers.

regards, Dave

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2011, 12:13:08 AM »

J. McCabe

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2011, 08:38:11 AM »
Six to Seven years ago, everyone was talking about the demise of crop bodied cameras.  People were very optimistic that the cost of producing sensors would continually fall and that FF cameras would become a lot more affordable.  Maybe Canon have developed some manufacturing efficiencies (or benefits from increasing volume) and this is the start of that?  Maybe its time to start offloading EF-S lenses onto "non-CR" people?

If those expectations / optimism was based on the assumption that sensors prices would go the way of microprocessor prices, I think misses two points.

First, computers sell much better than DSLRs / cameras with large sensors (in contrast to cameras with stamp size sensors). E.g. it makes sense for software companies to sell certain softwares (e.g. certain anti-viruses and office) with three licenses, because many households have that many computers. DSLRs aren't that popular, and if there are two or more DSLRs in a single household, chance are it's because someone uses them to make a living.

Second is cameras with large sensors are in a luxury / 'pro equipment' category, while similarily priced computers are in a household category. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they would be priced as such, regardless of production cost.

dilbert

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2011, 08:50:03 AM »
Quote
If they really would want to do something like this, it would be far simpler to lower prices on the 5DII, keeping it current alongside a new, and much more expensive 5DIII

That's the most rational comment on this thread. (Faint praise, I suppose, given some of the bizarre comments this rumor is prompting, but it is meant as a compliment.)

If the 5D Mark2 were introduced this week, with its existing feature set and at sub-$2k, it would be "wow, cheap" but none of its features aside from the sensor being full-frame would be compelling enough for anyone to seriously consider buying it.

Its video would now be sub-standard (not doing 1080p60), AF point selection weak (only 9), not enough MP (21 is less than 24 on Sony APS-C), etc.

If it were priced at $1500, are you (as a consumer), going to buy a camera with 3 year old technology (5DMK2), or the newly released Sony A77 that's full of new tech like high frame rates (no mirror), etc?

ecka

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2011, 01:54:38 PM »
Canon do not have any Mirror less interchangeble lens camera Now. People in this forum are asking for FF low cost mirrorless system from Canon. That sound like they want Canon to run before Canon can walk. I hope that people can understand that there is only ONE mirrorless FF camera in the world. That is the Leica M9 and it is very expensive for both the body and the lenses. One of the biggest issue (at least for me) is the slow focusing speed of mirrorless camera (about 0.4 second, like any P& S).  M9 get fast shooting speed by using manual focusing (no auto focusing). How many EOS DSLR user knows how to use ZONE Focusing?? Canon has been doing Leica copy from the 1930's until 1960's. They definitely have the know how. How ever for them to resurect it. It will not be cheap.
I am for a good  mirrorless system with auto focusing speed comparable to DSLR. I will even settle for APS-C sensor with good manual focusing lens (or it will comes with Leica M ount or vis adapter).
I'm afraid that Leica is expensive just because it's a Leica. The M9 has more voodoo magic than modern technology in it (joking :)). The fact that most people can't afford Leica M9 is making it somewhat special already. IMHO, luxury is all about unique and overpriced products. If only Sigma had made a mirrorless camera using SD1 sensor in it, then it would be a much more desirable product than SD1, even if it was over $3000. I'm not talking about the "living in your pocket" mirrorless concept nonsense, but a nice and comfortable size body which could accept any brand lenses via adapter and (hopefully) retain the AF and aperture control. Is it too much to ask?  ::)
FF + primes !

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2011, 02:11:44 PM »
Quote
Well, I don't need a new entry level FF camera and I don't see it coming. This rumor doesn't make sens at all. FF DSLR system is
If you have video in mind a cheap (and no manufacturer can afford to ignore video) FF cam makes a lot of sense.

If I were canon and wanted to releas a "entry level FF cam":
- pricing around the 60D
- plastic body
- a comparably low resolution like 12 MP or so
- low shutter speed
- digital viewfinder
- features on the level of a 600D...
- but optimized for video with some nice feature  that no other cam has at the moment
- a new EF mega-zoom Kit lense (18-2xx mm)

Because of the low resolution and an electronic VF (time is not ready yet for a pro EVIL cam) it would neither be in competition to the other pro cams like 5D nor the low-end cams (1100D 600D 60D).
But for video you don't need a hight resolution.

Imo this kind of "hybrid" cams would sell like hot cakes.
Everybody would be happy:
- canon has satisfied the market: "Yes we have an EVIL cam!" (and Canon really NEEDS an EVIL cam)
- the photo freaks are happy since they can keep their optical viewfinder
- the pros are happy since the new XD would compete their FF cams
Then why not making a FF camcorder and skip messing with the whole DSLR thing? IMHO, FF mirrorless makes a lot more sense than "cheap" FF DSLR, specially for videos, because you don't need a mirror for that at all and it would be much easier to adapt ANY lens you want. The next important thing is that mirrorless is cheaper to produce - no mirror-box, no OVF, no PDAF etc.
FF + primes !

Rocky

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2011, 03:52:48 PM »
Canon do not have any Mirror less interchangeble lens camera Now. People in this forum are asking for FF low cost mirrorless system from Canon. That sound like they want Canon to run before Canon can walk. I hope that people can understand that there is only ONE mirrorless FF camera in the world. That is the Leica M9 and it is very expensive for both the body and the lenses. One of the biggest issue (at least for me) is the slow focusing speed of mirrorless camera (about 0.4 second, like any P& S).  M9 get fast shooting speed by using manual focusing (no auto focusing). How many EOS DSLR user knows how to use ZONE Focusing?? Canon has been doing Leica copy from the 1930's until 1960's. They definitely have the know how. How ever for them to resurect it. It will not be cheap.
I am for a good  mirrorless system with auto focusing speed comparable to DSLR. I will even settle for APS-C sensor with good manual focusing lens (or it will comes with Leica M ount or vis adapter).
I'm afraid that Leica is expensive just because it's a Leica. The M9 has more voodoo magic than modern technology in it (joking :)). The fact that most people can't afford Leica M9 is making it somewhat special already. IMHO, luxury is all about unique and overpriced products. If only Sigma had made a mirrorless camera using SD1 sensor in it, then it would be a much more desirable product than SD1, even if it was over $3000. I'm not talking about the "living in your pocket" mirrorless concept nonsense, but a nice and comfortable size body which could accept any brand lenses via adapter and (hopefully) retain the AF and aperture control. Is it too much to ask?  ::)
Leica is expensive due to its quality and uniqueness. If you put a M9  or any M series camera in you hand and try to handle it, you will feel the quality immediately.  The coupled range finder/view finder combination is an optical marvel. The focusing of the lenses (All leica lenses) coupling back to the range finder in the body is  not an easy task either. All Leica  lenses (at least the older ones) are brass construction with supurb optics.  These are what make Leica expensive  and unique. Also Leica is built to last. I have a M4 as my work horse until I went digital.  It served me 40 years without the need to repair.
As you want a mirrorless FF that can use any brand of lens and retain the auto focus and  aprture control. You are really asking too much. As far as I know, there is no such adapter exist. You might have seen adapter being advertised. If you look close enough, you will find that they only allow you to mount the lens on the body, no aperture control or auto focus.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 03:55:13 PM by Rocky »

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2011, 04:48:13 AM »
Canon do not have any Mirror less interchangeble lens camera Now. People in this forum are asking for FF low cost mirrorless system from Canon. That sound like they want Canon to run before Canon can walk. I hope that people can understand that there is only ONE mirrorless FF camera in the world. That is the Leica M9 and it is very expensive for both the body and the lenses. One of the biggest issue (at least for me) is the slow focusing speed of mirrorless camera (about 0.4 second, like any P& S).  M9 get fast shooting speed by using manual focusing (no auto focusing). How many EOS DSLR user knows how to use ZONE Focusing?? Canon has been doing Leica copy from the 1930's until 1960's. They definitely have the know how. How ever for them to resurect it. It will not be cheap.
I am for a good  mirrorless system with auto focusing speed comparable to DSLR. I will even settle for APS-C sensor with good manual focusing lens (or it will comes with Leica M ount or vis adapter).
I'm afraid that Leica is expensive just because it's a Leica. The M9 has more voodoo magic than modern technology in it (joking :)). The fact that most people can't afford Leica M9 is making it somewhat special already. IMHO, luxury is all about unique and overpriced products. If only Sigma had made a mirrorless camera using SD1 sensor in it, then it would be a much more desirable product than SD1, even if it was over $3000. I'm not talking about the "living in your pocket" mirrorless concept nonsense, but a nice and comfortable size body which could accept any brand lenses via adapter and (hopefully) retain the AF and aperture control. Is it too much to ask?  ::)
Leica is expensive due to its quality and uniqueness. If you put a M9  or any M series camera in you hand and try to handle it, you will feel the quality immediately.  The coupled range finder/view finder combination is an optical marvel. The focusing of the lenses (All leica lenses) coupling back to the range finder in the body is  not an easy task either. All Leica  lenses (at least the older ones) are brass construction with supurb optics.  These are what make Leica expensive  and unique. Also Leica is built to last. I have a M4 as my work horse until I went digital.  It served me 40 years without the need to repair.
As you want a mirrorless FF that can use any brand of lens and retain the auto focus and  aprture control. You are really asking too much. As far as I know, there is no such adapter exist. You might have seen adapter being advertised. If you look close enough, you will find that they only allow you to mount the lens on the body, no aperture control or auto focus.
Well, yes, Leica products are nicely built, you can feel the quality. Also you can feel how slow it is. I hope Leica will borrow some processing power from their partners (Panasonic?) and put it into the next M. I really can't justify spending $7k-8k on that nice old looking camera with a retro technology inside. Leica lenses are beautiful, solid combination of metal and glass. For the price, their optics should be near flawless (or at least superior to anything else), but they are not.
Now, about the adapter thing. Everything is possible and they do exist. Sony is successfully adapting their DSLR lenses for the NEX mirrorless while retaining AF and aperture control. I believe the same works for m4/3. If you'll search for it on the web, you can even find some EF-NEX adapter prototype videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY1Nm6ZDWJs Sigma is a famous third party DSLR lenses manufacturer for a long time, and I don't think they would have much problems producing adapters and electronics compatible with other brand AF/aperture/IS/VR systems.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 09:47:09 AM by ecka »
FF + primes !

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2011, 04:48:13 AM »

Rocky

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2011, 02:11:26 PM »
Well, yes, Leica products are nicely built, you can feel the quality. Also you can feel how slow it is.
M9 is slow in frame rate and NO auto focusing. Agree. However the delay between shutter button to be pushed and picture actually being taken is faster than most DSLR if it is used the right way. The adpapter you quoted  from the Utube  is just a proto type, the lens cannot even being mounted on the camera. Sony can make adapter for its DSLR lens to be used on the NEX body. It is all in the family. You did ask fro " use with any brand of lens with aperture control and auto focusing".  It does not exist yet.
Do not get me wrong, I am not defending the high price of M9. I am just pointing out the virtue of M9 and its lenses. Camera is a very subjective personal choice. Otherwise there will only be one brand and one model left (the best that every body will agreed on)

Dave

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2011, 02:40:48 AM »
Quote
Then why not making a FF camcorder and skip messing with the whole DSLR thing?
Because people don't want two different devices doing actually the same. We are living in the digital age. To distinguish between video camera and photo camera has just historical reasons.

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Re: A New Entry Level Full Frame Camera? [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2011, 02:40:48 AM »