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Author Topic: The Next EOS M [CR2]  (Read 24083 times)

bobw

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2013, 08:54:19 AM »
Lenses, lenses, lenses. More lenses to match the form factor and weight without having to use an adapter. Then maybe more people will buy into it as a "system".

I think the current discount prices should help with that. Selling lots of cameras creates a market for lenses.

While selling the camera cheap may not make Canon much money now, I think it was necessary to get the line going.
Once there is a sufficient user-base, then they can make some money selling lenses/accessories/upgrade cameras.
It will also start to attract other companies to produce products.

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2013, 08:54:19 AM »

Dylan777

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2013, 09:32:14 AM »
Retro Design FF with more pancakes. WOW me this time Mr. Canon ::)
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c.d.embrey

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2013, 10:04:14 AM »
But Sony is going to release a FF mirrorless.

Full Frame and mirrorless don't go together. An 85mm lens on an APS-C and a 135mm lens on FF have the same Field Of View. One of the BIG selling points of  mirrorless is small & light. Hanging a BIGGER FF lens on a smaller mirrorless body kills that advantage.

1. EF 85mm f/1.8 USM - Max. Diameter x Length, Weight   3.0" x 2.8", 15.0 oz. / 75.0 x 71.5mm, 425g

2. EF 135mm f/2L USM - Max. Diameter x Length, Weight   3.2" x 4.4", 1.7 lbs. / 82.5 x 112.0mm, 750g

BTW not everyone wants/needs paper-thin DOF. For my advertising work I shoot a 5D3 at f/8 to f/16.

BTW2 This is where advertising is headed ... shallow DOF need not apply http://nitrogr.am/blog/armani-instagram-ads/

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2013, 10:13:59 AM »
But Sony is going to release a FF mirrorless.

Full Frame and mirrorless don't go together. An 85mm lens on an APS-C and a 135mm lens on FF have the same Field Of View...

1. EF 85mm f/1.8 USM - Max. Diameter x Length, Weight   3.0" x 2.8", 15.0 oz. / 75.0 x 71.5mm, 425g

2. EF 135mm f/2L USM - Max. Diameter x Length, Weight   3.2" x 4.4", 1.7 lbs. / 82.5 x 112.0mm, 750g

Fine, but although 85mm on APS-C gives the same FoV as 135mm on FF, the 85/1.8 on APS-C gives the DoF of ~f/2.8 for that same FoV.  If you want the equivalent of 135mm f/2 on your APS-C, you need:

3. EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM - Max. Diameter x Length, Weight 3.6" x 3.3", 2.3 lbs. / 91.5 x 84.0mm, 1025g

...and the 135L on FF will give you better IQ than the 85L II on APS-C.
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sylvestrerato

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2013, 10:25:45 AM »
I see no reason why FF would not go with mirrorless...

bainsybike

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2013, 10:49:20 AM »
I see no reason why FF would not go with mirrorless...

Neither do I - there were (are?) plenty of examples in the days of film.  Or am I missing something?

paul13walnut5

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2013, 11:16:21 AM »
I see no reason why FF would not go with mirrorless...

Neither do I - there were (are?) plenty of examples in the days of film.  Or am I missing something?

Yep.  Light could hit film at different angles and be recorded correctly.  The light has to be much more straight on for sensors, or you'll get really bad chroma and fall off. 

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2013, 11:16:21 AM »

c.d.embrey

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2013, 11:20:25 AM »

BTW not everyone wants/needs paper-thin DOF. For my advertising work I shoot a 5D3 at f/8 to f/16.

Fine, but although 85mm on APS-C gives the same FoV as 135mm on FF, the 85/1.8 on APS-C gives the DoF of ~f/2.8 for that same FoV.  If you want the equivalent of 135mm f/2 on your APS-C, you need:

3. EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM - Max. Diameter x Length, Weight 3.6" x 3.3", 2.3 lbs. / 91.5 x 84.0mm, 1025g

...and the 135L on FF will give you better IQ than the 85L II on APS-C.

What's so hard to understand? I shoot my advertising work at f/8 to F/16 with a 5D3. Clients like their customers to get a clear view of their product, not some arty blur.

IQ, you've got to be kidding, I've shot ads with a 40D using an F/1.8 85mm lens set at f/16. Were not talking about HUGH prints, just full page magazine work (print = about 150 DPI). If I was interested in High IQ I'd shoot chromes with my 4x5 or rent an 80Mp MFD (with a 240 mm LS f/4.5 IF leaf shutter lens.).

Different strokes for different folks!

c.d.embrey

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2013, 12:01:42 PM »
I see no reason why FF would not go with mirrorless...

Neither do I - there were (are?) plenty of examples in the days of film.  Or am I missing something?

Film cameras were much lighter than today's Full Frame digital cameras. A Canon T70 weighed about 20 Oz. vs 33+ Oz for a Canon 5D3.

AvTvM

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2013, 12:31:20 PM »
But Sony is going to release a FF mirrorless.
Full Frame and mirrorless don't go together. An 85mm lens on an APS-C and a 135mm lens on FF have the same Field Of View. One of the BIG selling points of  mirrorless is small & light. Hanging a BIGGER FF lens on a smaller mirrorless body kills that advantage.

I wholeheartedly have to disagree here: "Full Frame" [36x24mm] and mirrorless go together VERY NICELY. The body is small and light (think Sony RX-1R), so are pancake lenses from wide-angle right up to portrait lenses [~80mm .. see Pentax for pancakes]. This gives us a really compact and light package when we don't need to carry more. Or don't want to.  :)

Tele lenses are big anyways, and most of us don't carry them along all the time.  When we need them, we just take our existing EF-lenses and an adapter and are set to go. And if one does not like shallow DOF, no problem ... just close the aperture to an f/stop of your liking. :-)

The only thing missing up to now is a Canon mirrorless with FF-sensor and FF-capable, short flangeback lens mount, plus a few good fixed focal pancakes [e.g. 16/24/35/50/80] and a fully functional EF-adapter [as for EF-M].
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 12:44:30 PM by AvTvM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2013, 12:34:28 PM »
What's so hard to understand? I shoot my advertising work at f/8 to F/16 with a 5D3. Clients like their customers to get a clear view of their product, not some arty blur.
What I found hard to understand was your opening blanket statement:

Full Frame and mirrorless don't go together.
If you'd said, "I have no use for a FF mirrorless camera because I only shoot from f/8 to f/16," that's one thing.  But as far as I'm concerned, FF and mirrorless go together like peanut butter and chocolate.  Now, maybe you're allergic to peanuts or can't stand the taste of chocolate, but that's not true for everyone.

Some folks like arty blur, and find documentary images shot at f/8-f/16 quite boring. 

Thin DoF and 'arty blur' aren't used in advertisements?   ::)





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Chosenbydestiny

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2013, 11:44:54 PM »
Lenses, lenses, lenses. More lenses to match the form factor and weight without having to use an adapter. Then maybe more people will buy into it as a "system".

I think the current discount prices should help with that. Selling lots of cameras creates a market for lenses.

While selling the camera cheap may not make Canon much money now, I think it was necessary to get the line going.
Once there is a sufficient user-base, then they can make some money selling lenses/accessories/upgrade cameras.
It will also start to attract other companies to produce products.

Also true, but if they're going to market this to photographers (or cinematographers) who want a secondary or backup body I'd like to see more utility out of it. Some people are waiting for the EOS M to get it's feet wet as a system rather than have it updated over and over with still only a few native lenses out. The fact the 11-22mm EF-M isn't even being sold in the USA is actually discouraging me from buying. But that's just how I feel about it.
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paul13walnut5

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2013, 07:40:46 AM »
No matter your actual shooting aperture the potential for depth of field control is what matters, the larger the sensor the greater the range, so less depth of field at wide apertures and less aperture limited diffraction at small apertures.
The usable aperture range of a lens increases with sensor size. 

It's also worth noting that for a lot of product photography cameras with tilt or swing lenses / bellows / backs are used.  i.e. Medium or large format backs. to control not just the depth of field, but also the plane of focus.

Another example of so called 'Full Frame' users thinking they are the bees knees, when in the wider world, product photographers wouldn't generally pith on a so called 'full frame' or 'APS-C' format camera if it was on fire.

It's like fighting over whether a dagger or a sword is a better weapon to tackle somebody with a machine gun.
I do like a pointless simile.  I'll try and get a car one in next.

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2013, 07:40:46 AM »

bobw

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2013, 08:34:51 AM »
Also true, but if they're going to market this to photographers (or cinematographers) who want a secondary or backup body I'd like to see more utility out of it.

The big question is who exactly are they marketing it to? It would seem to me that the biggest selling point is size and weight. I'm not sure that's a top priority to most professional photographers. There are some who need to be mobile who might like it.

It's certainly attractive to serious amateur photographers.

vp7

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2013, 12:49:08 PM »
I just saw the EOS-M with the 18-55 and flash for $299.99 at the local Costco. Now I am even more tempted. I am most likely going to be moving to some sort of mirrorless really soon and have been waiting for Canon to expand their line. I would love the APS-C quality image that I got with the 7D and 60D in the small package for travel.

At the moment I am looking at the Olympus OM-D, I guess I will wait for a few more announcements before I commit, this month should be pretty busy with all the announcements. Hopefully Canon's will be one of them.

I am pretty happy with the 6D but it's getting to be too heavy to drag around while traveling and hiking.

Any suggestions?

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Re: The Next EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2013, 12:49:08 PM »