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Author Topic: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech  (Read 17322 times)

tcmatthews

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 11:51:48 PM »
Speaking about emphasis: I find the recent news that Nikon is patenting an adjustable AA filter really exciting. I wish that was Canon.
I wish they would just remove the AA filter and be done with it.  Solve the problem in software and down scale.  But the movie crowd and some landscape photographers would scream bloody murder.  And insist software is just not good enough. 
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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 11:51:48 PM »

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2013, 11:56:25 PM »
Speaking about emphasis: I find the recent news that Nikon is patenting an adjustable AA filter really exciting. I wish that was Canon.
I wish they would just remove the AA filter and be done with it.  Solve the problem in software and down scale.  But the movie crowd and some landscape photographers would scream bloody murder.  And insist software is just not good enough.

Maybe because it is not. Undersampling is a loss of information and no post-processing can restore what is lost. Downscale dos not help much when you have large scale aliasing.

An adjustable AA filter would be great even for stills.

takesome1

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2013, 12:11:37 AM »
Another debate on sensors, and now Nikon is  / or is not crushing Canon's sales because of it. The sensor is just a small part of the big "picture", so to speak.

If you haven't figured it out by Canon's actions with DSLR's in the last few years they seem to think Video is the future.

I doubt the sales lost or gained from Nikon are significant compared to the sales Canon lost to the iPhone and other phone manufactures. Canon should have gotten a clue from these companies. Where are the Canon phones built in to their cameras? The dedicated P&S is dead, add a smart phone to the back of it and people will come back. I would think seriously about buying a T5i phone, it would be smaller than bag phone I had in 1988. How about a new M model 1/8" wider with an iPhone on the back. I might pre-order.

Sensors, who's is better? Unless Canon sensors crash I don't care. I have my good glass, in a year or two this debate will be about a completely different set of specs on sensors and I will still have my good glass.


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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2013, 12:15:43 AM »
Canon Leads in Sensor Tech

Also, last, while I did respond to some of the things inside the body of your post, I guess I was mostly responding to the title.

Yes. I am totally guilty of baiting people with the title.


Haha! You did indeed. :P

I do appreciate that you and others are discussing this intelligently.

Well, it seems we'll be able to, finally. :D

I was motivated in part by watching the back and forth on the DXO thread and seeing that most of it amounted to schoolyard taunts from both sides.

Yeah...DXO is a real pain point in the Canon community (and not just because of the DXO scores...DXO definitely seems to have some issues with brand weighting, which is even more visible with their lens reviews.) Their scalar "score" is an atrocity...and it would be so even if Canon cameras didn't score badly. Their measurement data is useful, but trying to linearly rank cameras is just a bad idea IMO. I prefer the DPR approach, bucketing cameras into gold, silver, bronze buckets. Little looser and general, but it fits the extremely diverse set of measurable data points better.

I certainly hope the next generation of 7D will have all the things you mentioned (better autofocus, better frame rate, etc. including sensor improvements over the 70D). I think Canon does have a challenge ahead of themselves – they need to produce a 7DII that is enough better than the current model to convince current owners to upgrade because I do believe that the bulk of their sales of the 7DII will come from 7D owners.

Totally agree. I guess around this time next year, we'll learn what Canon meant when they said they would be doing something interesting with the 7D II sensor. I'm very curious to know if that interesting thing has a video or stills bent...

I do agree with some of what you've said about DSLR video. On a much earlier thread I suggested that video and stills, having converged for the past several years, may be at the point where they start to diverge again. I don't know enough about the technology, but I suspect it is unlikely that Canon can continue to improve their DSLRs in both video and stills without one starting to conflict with the other.

Sometimes I dream that the next 7D will not have a dual pixel sensor and instead Canon will use what they learned in developing that technology to make a sensor that performs better for stills photographers. I can dream can't I?

I don't think it is impossible for Canon to achieve that. I do, however, think they need to spread the R&D spending around a bit more. I can't really remember the last time there was a significant still photography innovation. The 61pt AF system might be the last thing I've heard that seriously improved still photography IQ in the Canon world...and that was quite a while ago now, couple years at least.

I've tried to use the video capabilities of my 7D a few times to record some of the interesting things I see out in nature, the stories that a few still photographs just can't tell. I've come to the conclusion that outside of your basic shaky-camera gig with quirky focus, you can't really use a DSLR for good quality video without investing in some of the tools that actually make it practical. A focus puller, a fluid-filled tripod head, a proper screen magnifier and shroud, etc. Once you get those things, and really want to start producing some higher quality cinematography, you start to realize you can't really do it all on your own, and you realize you need even more gear...maybe a dolly for smoother panning, and at least one other person to pull focus while you focus on everything else. Then you start thinking abut audio, the need for some external microphone jacks, cleaner video output, RAW video output, so on and so forth. Its just another rabbit hole.

You can do some basic things with DSLR video, and software like Adobe Premier helps (especially with its post-process image stabilization features...however then you really wish you had the full 4k 4096x3112 resolution so you have some extra pixels to support the cropping that comes along with that stabilization)...but anything more, and a simple DSLR just doesn't cut it, and it is an R&D funding black hole...

I find the viability of DSLR video in professional DSLR cameras to be limited without a lot of extra gear, and a growing number of additional features that would need to be added to stills cameras to make it really viable. Even for something as simple as filming the local fowl and fauna to make a short, but quality, video. So I totally agree...I think it is time the technologies diverge...at least at the professional level. I honestly couldn't really care what Canon does with their consumer grade products. ;P
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jrista

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2013, 12:18:02 AM »
Speaking about emphasis: I find the recent news that Nikon is patenting an adjustable AA filter really exciting. I wish that was Canon.

Ditto!! :\

...I would LOVE an AA filter I could disable for my landscapes, and enable for my birds.
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jrista

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2013, 12:25:23 AM »
Another debate on sensors, and now Nikon is  / or is not crushing Canon's sales because of it. The sensor is just a small part of the big "picture", so to speak.

If you haven't figured it out by Canon's actions with DSLR's in the last few years they seem to think Video is the future.

I doubt the sales lost or gained from Nikon are significant compared to the sales Canon lost to the iPhone and other phone manufactures. Canon should have gotten a clue from these companies. Where are the Canon phones built in to their cameras? The dedicated P&S is dead, add a smart phone to the back of it and people will come back. I would think seriously about buying a T5i phone, it would be smaller than bag phone I had in 1988. How about a new M model 1/8" wider with an iPhone on the back. I might pre-order.

Sensors, who's is better? Unless Canon sensors crash I don't care. I have my good glass, in a year or two this debate will be about a completely different set of specs on sensors and I will still have my good glass.

It's a good point about good glass. That's the reason I spent over ten grand on the EF 600mm lens. But there is a cost do buying good glass...the system has to last. If the onslaught of racing technological improvements in the CMOS Image Sensor sector continues, Canon's sensors will become irrelevant in a few years. Image quality took a jump with the D800...what happens when even your smartphone camera can achieve dynamic range like that, and every DSLR except Canon's does even better?

All anyone is saying is that Canon needs to step up their game, broaden their focus, and compete more effectively on multiple fronts. Dynamic range also doesn't just apply to stills photography, either. Canon is a new entrant to a fairly well established digital cinematography market. Again, sensors for the cinema segment are also improving. Red demonstrated a cine-sensor with over 20 stops of dynamic range! Sony has produced numerous smaller video sensors with incredible dynamic range (although nothing yet that quite compares with 20 stops). The sensor IQ debate doesn't actually end with stills, it is a video factor as well (and in many ways, DR is FAR more important for cinematography than it is for stills.)

Will Canon actually succeed in the video market? What'll happen when their cinema line remains stuck at 12 stops of DR while all of their competition continues accelerating to 20 stops and beyond? If the future is video, then Canon still needs to compete, and DR is still a factor. I hope they figure that out and do something about it before their (rather diverse) competition crushes them. I've invested too much. :P
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takesome1

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2013, 12:31:18 AM »

I do agree with some of what you've said about DSLR video. On a much earlier thread I suggested that video and stills, having converged for the past several years, may be at the point where they start to diverge again. I don't know enough about the technology, but I suspect it is unlikely that Canon can continue to improve their DSLRs in both video and stills without one starting to conflict with the other.

Sometimes I dream that the next 7D will not have a dual pixel sensor and instead Canon will use what they learned in developing that technology to make a sensor that performs better for stills photographers. I can dream can't I?

I don't think it is impossible for Canon to achieve that. I do, however, think they need to spread the R&D spending around a bit more. I can't really remember the last time there was a significant still photography innovation. The 61pt AF system might be the last thing I've heard that seriously improved still photography IQ in the Canon world...and that was quite a while ago now, couple years at least.

I've tried to use the video capabilities of my 7D a few times to record some of the interesting things I see out in nature, the stories that a few still photographs just can't tell. I've come to the conclusion that outside of your basic shaky-camera gig with quirky focus, you can't really use a DSLR for good quality video without investing in some of the tools that actually make it practical. A focus puller, a fluid-filled tripod head, a proper screen magnifier and shroud, etc. Once you get those things, and really want to start producing some higher quality cinematography, you start to realize you can't really do it all on your own, and you realize you need even more gear...maybe a dolly for smoother panning, and at least one other person to pull focus while you focus on everything else. Then you start thinking abut audio, the need for some external microphone jacks, cleaner video output, RAW video output, so on and so forth. Its just another rabbit hole.

You can do some basic things with DSLR video, and software like Adobe Premier helps (especially with its post-process image stabilization features...however then you really wish you had the full 4k 4096x3112 resolution so you have some extra pixels to support the cropping that comes along with that stabilization)...but anything more, and a simple DSLR just doesn't cut it, and it is an R&D funding black hole...

I find the viability of DSLR video in professional DSLR cameras to be limited without a lot of extra gear, and a growing number of additional features that would need to be added to stills cameras to make it really viable. Even for something as simple as filming the local fowl and fauna to make a short, but quality, video. So I totally agree...I think it is time the technologies diverge...at least at the professional level. I honestly couldn't really care what Canon does with their consumer grade products. ;P

If memory serves, when Canon released the 1D C they had released video of photographers doing frame grabs for stills.
This very well may be the way Canon see's still photography in the future. Instead of 12 fps you shoot a few seconds of video and cut what you need out. The problem I saw when watching the video, the IQ wasn't quit there yet.

I think diverge is a pipe dream, Canon's actions the last few years seem to always be pushing toward video and combining the two.

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2013, 12:31:18 AM »

takesome1

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2013, 12:38:22 AM »
Another debate on sensors, and now Nikon is  / or is not crushing Canon's sales because of it. The sensor is just a small part of the big "picture", so to speak.

If you haven't figured it out by Canon's actions with DSLR's in the last few years they seem to think Video is the future.

I doubt the sales lost or gained from Nikon are significant compared to the sales Canon lost to the iPhone and other phone manufactures. Canon should have gotten a clue from these companies. Where are the Canon phones built in to their cameras? The dedicated P&S is dead, add a smart phone to the back of it and people will come back. I would think seriously about buying a T5i phone, it would be smaller than bag phone I had in 1988. How about a new M model 1/8" wider with an iPhone on the back. I might pre-order.

Sensors, who's is better? Unless Canon sensors crash I don't care. I have my good glass, in a year or two this debate will be about a completely different set of specs on sensors and I will still have my good glass.

It's a good point about good glass. That's the reason I spent over ten grand on the EF 600mm lens. But there is a cost do buying good glass...the system has to last. If the onslaught of racing technological improvements in the CMOS Image Sensor sector continues, Canon's sensors will become irrelevant in a few years. Image quality took a jump with the D800...what happens when even your smartphone camera can achieve dynamic range like that, and every DSLR except Canon's does even better?

All anyone is saying is that Canon needs to step up their game, broaden their focus, and compete more effectively on multiple fronts. Dynamic range also doesn't just apply to stills photography, either. Canon is a new entrant to a fairly well established digital cinematography market. Again, sensors for the cinema segment are also improving. Red demonstrated a cine-sensor with over 20 stops of dynamic range! Sony has produced numerous smaller video sensors with incredible dynamic range (although nothing yet that quite compares with 20 stops). The sensor IQ debate doesn't actually end with stills, it is a video factor as well (and in many ways, DR is FAR more important for cinematography than it is for stills.)

Will Canon actually succeed in the video market? What'll happen when their cinema line remains stuck at 12 stops of DR while all of their competition continues accelerating to 20 stops and beyond? If the future is video, then Canon still needs to compete, and DR is still a factor. I hope they figure that out and do something about it before their (rather diverse) competition crushes them. I've invested too much. :P

What will happen when my smartphone is as good as my 1D? I will be buying a smartphone adapter for my 500mm, and carrying a few less pounds on the airplane.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 12:40:49 AM by takesome1 »

Famateur

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2013, 12:52:30 AM »
I hear ya, Unfocused. My opinion (as expressed in another thread) is that Canon chose to concentrate on Live View AF for this generation of sensor. From all the YouTube videos I've seen of the 70D thus far, they pulled it off superbly.

I understand that, to many, Dual Pixel AF appears to be aimed at videographers, and while in practicality, it pretty much is right now, think of what this technology will do for the next mirrorless body!!! That's the first thing I thought of when they announced DPAF. Add a high quality EVF (for those who really want/need it), and you've got a mirrorless body that spanks the competition for auto-focus. I expect a DPAF EOS M will fly off the shelves.

One other thought: we know companies tend to release technology on a scheduled road map. While many are moaning that the DR/noise performance hasn't improved that much in the 70D compared to previous generations, how do we know that they didn't just hold it back in the release pipeline to release it with the 7D?

I know that's optimistic, and I'm perfectly content if they really did focus on just Live View AF, but maybe we should wait to see what the 7DII actually delivers. Just a thought...

Anyway, Canon demonstrated that when it sets out to solve something (like Live View AF), it can succeed. When Canon decides to "solve" the dynamic range and noise "problem", I have no doubt it will be equally successful. I'm excited for Canon.  8)

Of course, not everyone in this forum shares my optimism, particularly after having high DR/noise hopes for the last couple of years and having them dashed. They're like Buttercup, and I'm Wesley as we're fleeing to the Fire Swamp for safety:

Buttercup: We'll never survive!
Wesley: Nonsense! You're only saying that because no one ever has...

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2013, 01:02:28 AM »
Of course, not everyone in this forum shares my optimism, particularly after having high DR/noise hopes for the last couple of years and having them dashed. They're like Buttercup, and I'm Wesley as we're fleeing to the Fire Swamp for safety:

Buttercup: We'll never survive!
Wesley: Nonsense! You're only saying that because no one ever has...

What are the dangers of the Fire Swamp?  The High DR spurt, but there's a popping sound from the ADC before that, so those are easily avoided.  Lightening pattern noise, but Aglet was clever enough to figure out what that looks like, so we can avoid that, too.  What about the ROUS?  Resolution of Unusual Suckiness?  I don't think that exists.
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Famateur

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2013, 01:06:48 AM »
Of course, not everyone in this forum shares my optimism, particularly after having high DR/noise hopes for the last couple of years and having them dashed. They're like Buttercup, and I'm Wesley as we're fleeing to the Fire Swamp for safety:

Buttercup: We'll never survive!
Wesley: Nonsense! You're only saying that because no one ever has...

What are the dangers of the Fire Swamp?  The High DR spurt, but there's a popping sound from the ADC before that, so those are easily avoided.  Lightening pattern noise, but Aglet was clever enough to figure out what that looks like, so we can avoid that, too.  What about the ROUS?  Resolution of Unusual Suckiness?  I don't think that exists.

LOL! Once again, your wit was faster than my reply to my own post (as evidenced by my other post being after this one). Resolution of Unusual Suckiness! Love it!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 01:08:23 AM by Famateur »

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2013, 01:07:03 AM »
How do we know that they didn't just hold it back in the release pipeline to release it with the 7D?

Just to expand on this a little more, it sounds like the 7DII will be released several months (or even a year) after the 70D. Am I the only one that thinks Canon has more up its sleeve than putting the 70D sensor in a bigger heavier body with more whistles and bells?

I know, I know -- that's essentially what they did with the 60D and 7D (only in reverse?). Maybe I'm getting back to Fire Swamp optimism...  ;D

It just seems like that's a lot of time to wait for an already long-overdue successor to the 7D, and perhaps that time would make more sense to us if we knew that a new sensor tech (or ADC, or whatever) was being tested in conjunction with DPAF. We've all been thinking about the 70D sensor as it is and wondering what Canon might add to it for the 7DII. What if it was the other way around? What if they created the 7DII sensor and then opted to use a lesser "consumer" version with DPAF for the mid-level 70D?

"Rodents of Unusual Size? Personally, I don't think they exist."  8)

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2013, 01:41:53 AM »
Of course, not everyone in this forum shares my optimism, particularly after having high DR/noise hopes for the last couple of years and having them dashed. They're like Buttercup, and I'm Wesley as we're fleeing to the Fire Swamp for safety:

Buttercup: We'll never survive!
Wesley: Nonsense! You're only saying that because no one ever has...

What are the dangers of the Fire Swamp?  The High DR spurt, but there's a popping sound from the ADC before that, so those are easily avoided.  Lightening pattern noise, but Aglet was clever enough to figure out what that looks like, so we can avoid that, too.  What about the ROUS?  Resolution of Unusual Suckiness?  I don't think that exists.

Hah!! +10000
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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2013, 01:41:53 AM »

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2013, 01:55:14 AM »
I was too unfocused tonight to take the bait!

(plus everyone already hit most, enough, of the relevant points already)


« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 01:57:39 AM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2013, 02:24:24 AM »
I would still be happy if they would just re-release the 1D4 at half the price.

I remember an interview where some Canon executive said that part of their long term strategy is to introduce larger sensors into lower price ranges.
Lowering the cost of large sensors actually seems like the most beneficial improvement they could make. Most people already use FF glass, now they just need the body to unlock its potential. Stick APS-H in the next Rebel and full frame in the 80D, now that's an improvement.
That also fits with introducing medium format for a new top tier.
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Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2013, 02:24:24 AM »